Amppax Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1344055173' post='2462575'] this is the most realistic example that should be used. does someone who is under 21 have to follow the law which states it is illegal to drink if you are under 21. i say yes, you have to follow the law. the law is not sinful. it is not causing you to do something. also it is with in a governments right to establish an age for certain substances such as alcohol, smoking and possibly soon marijuana. i think realistically a catholic has no basis for not following this current law(mass and worship excluded obviously) except because they want to drink alcohol and they are trying to find an excuse to not follow the law. [/quote] Haha I troll u. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1344055316' post='2462576'] as it pertains to the priest thing, i think it depends. if a priest is not telling you to do something sinful then i think you should follow his directions. an example would be a priest says every adult male needs to wear a shirt and tie to mass because it brings more reverence to the mass. i think there would be no reason in this instance to not follow the priest direction. [/quote] JESUS said " you hypocrites reverance with tithes of dill and cumin." i think what jesus is getting at is reverance is an interior conversion more than an exterior look. But also i think GOD works in the government with laws like the drinking laws that those without christ may be helped away from serious error like drunkard teenagers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 4, 2012 Author Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1344055316' post='2462576'] as it pertains to the priest thing, i think it depends. if a priest is not telling you to do something sinful then i think you should follow his directions. an example would be a priest says every adult male needs to wear a shirt and tie to mass because it brings more reverence to the mass. i think there would be no reason in this instance to not follow the priest direction. [/quote] the question is not would it be good to follow the priest or a good idea or not wrong. The question is [b]would we then be morally obligated to follow the priests direction?[/b]I think the answer to that is no. We would not be morally obligated to then wear a shirt and tie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344063097' post='2462606'] the question is not would it be good to follow the priest or a good idea or not wrong. The question is [b]would we then be morally obligated to follow the priests direction?[/b] I think the answer to that is no. We would not be morally obligated to then wear a shirt and tie. [/quote] why not in the example i gave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 what does this all have to do with receiving tacos in the hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 There are red lights I will not wait at, under certain conditions. I also frequently roll stop signs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1344095685' post='2462651'] why not in the example i gave? [/quote] because I don't believe it is in accord with right reason that the only acceptable attire to wear to church is a shirt and tie for men. Also, I'm not sure I believe that priests have authority such matters to bind the laity to such requirements under pain of sin. We have no vow or promise of obedience to a priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344222497' post='2463289'] There are red lights I will not wait at, under certain conditions. I also frequently roll stop signs. [/quote] [img]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) Wow - somehow I knew this would turn into the old "is it a sin to speed" argument. The truth is, I don't know. Logically, I think we should err on the side of caution on this. Remember that a sin, by definition, is an offense against God. That should be our first concern. [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344025050' post='2462307'] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=2461749"][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_images/phatmass/snapback.png[/img][/url]Slappo, on Yesterday, 03:20 PM, said: So... you believe we are morally obligated to follow unjust authority when that authority figure is not commanding us to do something sinful? If the United States Government makes it a law that listening to music is illegal, do you believe we are required to comply with that law? Why or why not? On a religious point: If a priest tells us that men must wear t-shirts and shorts to masses where he is the celebrant as he views those clothes to best depict the proper reverence we should show at mass do you believe we are morally obligated to wear t-shirts and shorts? Why or why not? (assume that you don't view t-shirts and shorts at mass as sinful) [/quote] The United States government is not an unjust authority. It has in the past (and present) abused that authority to make unjust laws, but it is not in itself unjust. Nor is the priest. The priest is here as our legitimate spiritual authority. He was ordained by the Church, and therefore, by God. Some priests may at times make bad calls. Whether or not we should obey an unjust law will, I think, depend on circumstances. But the circumstances I'm thinking of seem to come back to committing immoral actions... 1) Listening to music is illegal - obey or disobey? This is a tough one (I think intentionally). This brings up the whole prohibition thing. Do I [b]logically [/b]think we should obey the government here? If it weren't for the liturgy, I would be leaning toward yes. Then again, music isn't required in liturgy - it just enhances it. I think I'll answer "obey", with the additional statement: "Blessed are you who suffer persecution for justice' sake, for yours is the kingdom of Heaven." 2) T-shirts and shorts to mass - obey or disobey (caveat of moral obligation)? This one is even tougher, because now you're hitting at one of my pet peeves (again I think intentionally). Of course I don't see this actually happening in a situation that can't be avoided, but that's beside the point. So - to get to the situation that you really want me to answer - I have no choice but to attend Mass at this parish, and the priest is telling me that I must wear shorts and a t-shirt to Mass. I'll assume for the moment that the act [i]isn't[/i] sinful, because I definitely think it can be. I'll answer "obey", for the simple reason that, as I said, the priest is here to act as Christ's representative - it's not a position to be taken lightly. The fact that were assuming it's not sinful changes the situation, also. It's become not as big of a deal as it was before. So, yeah, morally we should obey the priest. I know a lot of people here won't agree, but I really don't care. This is how I roll. Now, whether or not I would actually follow through is another story. I'm a pretty big hypocrite! Edit: I realize that you're talking about moral obligation with these. That fact doesn't change my answers. Edited August 6, 2012 by fides' Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) Found this online and thought it [b][i]very[/i] [/b]interesting and pertinent: [url="http://www.culturewars.com/CultureWars/Archives/Fidelity_archives/SSPX7.htm"]http://www.culturewa...hives/SSPX7.htm[/url] [quote] For completeness it should be added that even if one is in [i]doubt [/i]as to whether obedience to the command is or is not sinful, one is obliged to obey, because the presumption is in favor of the superior. This also applies when compliance with a command appears to be [i]probably [/i]sinful. Only when definite sin is involved is one entitled, and obliged, to disobey. The clear teaching of the Church on this point is summed up by St. Ignatius Loyola: [i]"When, in my opinion and judgment, the Superior bids me to do something which is against my conscience or sinful, and the Superior thinks the contrary, I ought to believe him unless he is manifestly wrong[/i]." ([i]Monumenta Ignatian,[/i] series 1a, XII, 660). [/quote] I don't know what the site is about - I just read the above - so not sure about credibility here, but the quote from St. Ignatius has a source, so I believe he actually said that. At the very least, I agree with the conclusion the author presents: "Only when definite sin is involved is one [b]entitled[/b], and obliged, to disobey." Edit: just wanted to add some emphasis in the last sentence. Edited August 6, 2012 by fides' Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344229432' post='2463335'] because I don't believe it is in accord with right reason that the only acceptable attire to wear to church is a shirt and tie for men. Also, I'm not sure I believe that priests have authority such matters to bind the laity to such requirements under pain of sin. We have no vow or promise of obedience to a priest. [/quote] so are you saying the priest has no authority over the laity? that the church has authority but an individual priest does not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) I'm gonna through a tl;dr of what I said in the other thread into here regarding a priest commanding things particular to the rubrics of the liturgy: the priest has absolutely no authority to command anything that is an addition or an alteration to the rubrics of the Sacred Liturgy. he doesn't have that kind of authority over the liturgy, over you, or over your spiritual life. if he commands anything that is an addition or an alteration to the rubrics of the liturgy, that command can be safely ignored because he doesn't have the authority to make that command, in any capacity. his lack of authority over the liturgy is absolute (except where the rubrics give him legitimate options), he is a servant of the liturgy. now, other things on this thread over here being discussed are non-liturgical, so there's a different debate going on. does what I said about liturgical actions mean he has no authority over a dress code at his Church? I'm not sure, he might. he certainly would not have the right to refuse the sacraments to anyone not following his arbitrary dress code of something like a suit and tie, that would be contrary to canon law, though he could turn people away if they were dressed immodestly in a way that could cause scandal, like the dress codes for Italian churches. if the pastor of a church actually declared a dress code and the bishop basically gave his consent by not sacking him after all the angry phone calls into the chancery, then I think it'd be prudent to follow it to the best of one's ability. would one be bound to follow it under pain of sin? I'm not sure, actually. Edited August 6, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) double post Edited August 6, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 (edited) triple post Edited August 6, 2012 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 6, 2012 Share Posted August 6, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344230530' post='2463341'] [img]http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/508/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme.png[/img] [/quote] Please do not distract from my flamebait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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