Catholicism Is Dangerous Now, Apparently.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343842482' post='2461155']
You're probably just joking around. Even so the Church wouldn't approve of those things.
[/quote]

No he is exactly right. He isn't talking about what the Church thinks, because the state could care less of our opinion.

[Winchester]

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8YphtkAHyDU/TDyxXLqXG8I/AAAAAAAAAVk/LauVGexJ5GY/s1600/horse-cart.jpg[/img]

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1343841884' post='2461143']
Why don't the government just get out of the marriage business all together? Let's let the churches perform marriages, and the government issue civil union certificates. Make it the same for everybody. Men and women, men and men, women and women, men and women + women, whatever. They all get to be legally civil union-fied. Then find a church to get married. Gay people can go to a gay church to get married. Pet lovers can go to their "pets are people too" church to get married to their pets. Everybody is happy.
[/quote]

While this is surprisingly logical, I think it will only delay things. Gay 'marriage' is not about gay 'marriage', equal rights, or anything remotely close to this; it's about approval. Not tolerance, but approval.

I am hard pressed to believe that if what was quoted came to fruition, people would not still approach the Church (and other ecclesial bodies) wanting to be married.

And we will be exactly were we are now....but with the precedent of federally recognized civil unions...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1343877210' post='2461431']


No he is exactly right. He isn't talking about what the Church thinks, because the state could care less of our opinion.
[/quote]

Yet the CCC says that we have a duty to infuse the Christian spirit into the societies in which we live including the mores and laws of our societies. Governments should therefore encourage true marriage. The Church as I've understood has taught that governments should encourage true marriage. I'll try and posts those documents when I return from helping my brother move. But if there are Church documents or statements that say that true marriage is not to encouraged by governments, or that governments should have no say either way, I would like to see them. I will of course correct myself if such documents or statements are to be found.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343934492' post='2461654']
Yet the CCC says that we have a duty to infuse the Christian spirit into the societies in which we live including the mores and laws of our societies. Governments should therefore encourage true marriage. The Church as I've understood has taught that governments should encourage true marriage. I'll try and posts those documents when I return from helping my brother move. But if there are Church documents or statements that say that true marriage is not to encouraged by governments, or that governments should have no say either way, I would like to see them. I will of course correct myself if such documents or statements are to be found.
[/quote]This is what you're looking for:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

[sixpence]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343934492' post='2461654']
Yet the CCC says that we have a duty to infuse the Christian spirit into the societies in which we live including the mores and laws of our societies. Governments should therefore encourage true marriage. The Church as I've understood has taught that governments should encourage true marriage. I'll try and posts those documents when I return from helping my brother move. But if there are Church documents or statements that say that true marriage is not to encouraged by governments, or that governments should have no say either way, I would like to see them. I will of course correct myself if such documents or statements are to be found.
[/quote]

I really really, not trying to be a trouble maker, still do not get it. I do not understand how we can call foul on the govt for trying to impose what they have decided is best for society on us, while we want to do exactly the same thing.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1343786915' post='2460958']
Catholicism is dangerous because every Catholic is required to build a nuclear device as part of his service hours for Confirmation.
[/quote]
I CANNOT WAIT for this to hit the news media. The prime time news headlines WILL. BE. PRICELESS.


[quote name='tomasio127' timestamp='1343844999' post='2461174']
The "tolerant people" will not be happy to simply have all the rights they want; not as long as we refuse to applaud their [s]sin[/s] lifestyle.
[/quote]
I think that's incorrect.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1343841884' post='2461143']
Why don't the government just get out of the marriage business all together? Let's let the churches perform marriages, and the government issue civil union certificates. Make it the same for everybody. Men and women, men and men, women and women, men and women + women, whatever. They all get to be legally civil union-fied. Then find a church to get married. Gay people can go to a gay church to get married. Pet lovers can go to their "pets are people too" church to get married to their pets. Everybody is happy.
[/quote]
While I hope you're joking, a lot of people on here do take this position seriously.

Which is unfortunate, because this position is blatantly contrary to the social teaching of Church.

Our current Holy Father, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith, wrote clearly and unambiguously that Catholics are [i]morally obligated[/i] to oppose any legal recognition of homosexual unions on the same level as marriage between man and woman. I strongly recommend reading the entire document here: "[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html"]Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons[/url]," but I'll quote a few of the more relevant sections.

You'll note that any and all such legal recognition of homosexual unions are condemned, whether they are called "marriages," "civil unions," or anything else:
[quote]Laws in favour of homosexual unions are contrary to right reason because they confer legal guarantees, analogous to those granted to marriage, to unions between persons of the same sex. [b]Given the values at stake in this question, the State could not grant legal standing to such unions without failing in its duty to promote and defend marriage as an institution essential to the common good.[/b][/quote]

Cardinal Ratzinger gives a number of arguments for why legal recognition of homosexual unions is wrong from the order of reason, which I don't have space to quote here, but I recommend you read.

He states this, however, regarding the duties of Catholic politicians:
[quote]
[left]If [b]it is true that all Catholics are obliged to oppose the legal recognition of homosexual unions[/b], Catholic politicians are obliged to do so in a particular way, in keeping with their responsibility as politicians. Faced with legislative proposals in favour of homosexual unions, Catholic politicians are to take account of the following ethical indications.[/left]
When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly,[b] the Catholic law-maker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favour of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral.[/b]
When legislation in favour of the recognition of homosexual unions is already in force,[b] the Catholic politician must oppose it in the ways that are possible for him and make his opposition known; it is his duty to witness to the truth.[/b]
[/quote]

The document concludes:
[quote] The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.[b] The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity[/b]. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself.[/quote]

If the state, as you propose, fails to grant any legal recognition to marriage between man and woman at all, but simply grants "civil unions" to whomever wants them, it has certainly failed in the duties proscribed be the Church here. It would not recognize, promote and protect marriage, but simply place it on the same level legally as sodomitic unions, which is plainly condemned above.

The Church doesn't call on us to make feel-good compromises to "make everybody happy," but to do the right thing.

It is a shame and scandal than positions so directly opposed to what the Church teaches on this matter are regularly promoted on a website purportedly devoted to teaching the Catholic Faith.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1343845726' post='2461180']
Where's the one about "Thou shalt get State permission before receiving sacraments"?

It's a shame Catholics joined the pietists.
[/quote]
Yeah, bloody damned shame there are still some Catholics siding with Church social teaching on this matter.

This issue has absolutely nothing whatever to do with getting state permission to receive sacraments. The sacrament of marriage is unaffected however the government ultimately rules on this.
The issue is whether the government gives special legal recognition to homosexual relationships and such as equal to marriage.

The state granting homosexual unions and marriage equal legal status (which the Church condemns) will do absolutely nothing to protect Catholic sacramental marriage.
The state [i]not [/i]granting special legal recognition to homosexual unions does absolutely nothing to endanger sacramental marriage. It would merely preserve the status quo. As far as I'm aware, the US government does not deny anyone sacramental marriage.

A stupid strawman argument.

[Socrates]

As to the original topic, of course Catholicism is dangerous.
It has always been dangerous.

In fact, I would have no interest in a Faith that was "safe."

The world always has and always will hate and fear the Faith founded on Christ because the Prince of This World hates and fears it. The hate will only intensify before the end times.

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1343944732' post='2461712']
As to the original topic, of course Catholicism is dangerous.
It has always been dangerous.

In fact, I would have no interest in a Faith that was "safe."

The world always has and always will hate and fear the Faith founded on Christ because the Prince of This World hates and fears it. The hate will only intensify before the end times.
[/quote]

Some people in the world find people like you annoying because you attempt to limit the freedom of others on the basis of your personal fairy tales. Believe whatever baseless claims you want. If it makes you feel better to believe that some ultimate being exists and is personally invested in your existence, despite a complete lack of any evidence for such a belief, then fine, but stop using that as a pretense for dictating how others live their lives. The hypocrisy of religious conservatives is really breathtaking. Get government out of the way! Unless some book that I believe, without justification, to have been inspired by God says that something is a sin, then by God let's use the powers of the state to thrust my unsupported beliefs onto the backs of others who want no part in them!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1343945263' post='2461716']
[i]Waaaagh! Waaaagh! Waaaagh![/i]
[/quote]
Have some Chick-fil-A waffle fries. It'll make you feel better.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Socrates

[Didacus]

Any group of people have the potential of being dangerous, and truth be told, even catholicism in the past has been misused and abused for political gains.

If people do not understand it - they will fear it.

I agree the best way to protect ourselves and our faith is to know it, and live it.

I unfortunately agree, as I've often said in the past, that things will likelhy get much worse before they get better. You may find that although being shot is very painful, being shot remains favorable to many otehr fates that may forced upon humans.

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1343945404' post='2461717']
Have some Chick-fil-A waffle fries. It'll make you feel better.
[/quote]


I don't speak pervert. But I'm pretty sure that I want no part of whatever 'waffle fries' you have to offer.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1343944452' post='2461709']
Yeah, bloody damned shame there are still some Catholics siding with Church social teaching on this matter.

This issue has absolutely nothing whatever to do with getting state permission to receive sacraments. The sacrament of marriage is unaffected however the government ultimately rules on this.
The issue is whether the government gives special legal recognition to homosexual relationships and such as equal to marriage.

The state granting homosexual unions and marriage equal legal status (which the Church condemns) will do absolutely nothing to protect Catholic sacramental marriage.
The state [i]not [/i]granting special legal recognition to homosexual unions does absolutely nothing to endanger sacramental marriage. It would merely preserve the status quo. As far as I'm aware, the US government does not deny anyone sacramental marriage.

A stupid strawman argument.
[/quote]

At first, I thought you were going to respond to my position. Then I saw you, once again, verbally poo yourself.