Why Is Communion In The Hand Still Allowed?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343838002' post='2461098']
I agree with all what you are saying regarding dealing with the priest. Seems very clear to me. My argument is regarding the [u]telling[/u] someone to out right disobey his priest. I don't believe that is the best and prudent thing to do. I believe it more prudent and more helpful to the person going forward if you explain Church teachings and why/how you made the choice you did. However, it is our obligation to bring to light the priest's error to his pastor, then bishop, etc.
[/quote]

Again it isn't actual disobedience. But if by "telling someone" you mean they "command someone" then I would agree that would be wrong. But someone outright telling another that they should receive on the tongue while kneeling because it is their right and because they should receive the way they know by their conscious is right, no matter the priest's opinion or unjust command, is not wrong.

Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343832188' post='2461061']


It would be sinful to disobey the priest's directive for the wrong reason(e.g. out of spite), but not out of obeying your conscience. I would comply b/c I desire the Eucharist above all and don't want to cause a disruption. I believe the priest here is in serious jeopardy. By denying me to receive on the tongue, which is a valid form to receive, I would probably have sinful thoughts about that priest.
[/quote]On a similar note, if asked to stand when I present myself by kneeling, I would do so so as not to cause a scene. It would upset me, but I would do it. And then I'd try to give benefit of the doubt for the priest, thinking maybe he is unaware that kneeling is allowed. I know that thought wouldn't be my first instinct, as I am often too quick to judge, but hopefully I'd allow God's grace to grant me such thoughts.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343837067' post='2461095']
I am inclined to say no.

My priest said I must only chew grape bubblegum. I disobey him by chewing cherry bubblegum. Is it sinful for me to disobey my priest's command that is not sinful?
[/quote]

Well, that's the only place we disagree, then, I think. I'm not qualified to answer about the sinfulness of your analogy, but I would say that it's [i]best[/i] to obey, simply because the person is a priest. As in, it's in the best interest of the virtue of humility.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343837198' post='2461096']
No, it is not. And I have shown proof of this, communion on the tongue while kneeling is a universal right. Being that it is a universal right is not sinful to do even if a priest says one cannot.
[/quote]

The argument of it being "a universal right" is not proof. I do not disagree that it is a universal right. Nobody here disagrees with that.

Now, if you went a step further, you could make the argument that if someone has a right to do something, it is permissible to disobey any direction contrary to that right. That's an argument, and seems to be what you're suggesting. And it's in this little detail where our disagreement lies.

I believe, in the virtue of humility, we have the obligation to obey [i]even [/i]when it contradicts our universal rights, so long as the act of obeying does not bring us into sin.

When we look at it that way, then the disagreement isn't so great between us, and it isn't necessary for either of us to call the other "ignorant".

But now I see where our real argument lies. I have no interest in defending my position that we should obey even at the cost of our own rights, except to say that it's a matter of piety and humility - which, granted, is something I struggle with.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343838002' post='2461098']
I agree with all what you are saying regarding dealing with the priest. Seems very clear to me. My argument is regarding the [u]telling[/u] someone to out right disobey his priest. I don't believe that is the best and prudent thing to do. I believe it more prudent and more helpful to the person going forward if you explain Church teachings and why/how you made the choice you did. However, it is our obligation to bring to light the priest's error to his pastor, then bishop, etc.
[/quote]

I agree. Even if we can morally disobey the priest in this instance (which I'm not saying), it would not be in the best interest of the Church to tell other lay people to do so.

[Papist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343839252' post='2461110']
Again it isn't actual disobedience. But if by "telling someone" you mean they "command someone" then I would agree that would be wrong. But someone outright telling another that they should receive on the tongue while kneeling because it is their right and because they should receive the way they know by their conscious is right, no matter the priest's opinion or unjust command, is not wrong.
[/quote]

Yes, that is what I mean by telling. If you are saying we should tell someone they should follow their conscience on this matter, then I agree in that "telling". The person needs to fully own his decision, not just do what I tell him to do b/c he believes I am a very faithful Catholic and trusts that want I am telling him is sound.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343839762' post='2461114']
The argument of it being "a universal right" is not proof. I do not disagree that it is a universal right. Nobody here disagrees with that.[/quote]

Yes, it is indeed proof. A right cannot be denied it is a right! And incase you missed it priests don't have the authority to and they break Church law if they attempt to require communion in the hand only.



[quote]
Query: Whether in dioceses where it is allowed to distribute Communion in the hands of the faithful, a priest or extraordinary ministers of holy Communion may restrict communicants to receive Communion only in their hands, not on the tongue.

Response: Certainly it is clear from the very documents of the Holy See that in dioceses where the eucharistic bread is put in the hands of the faithful, the right to receive the eucharistic bread on the tongue still remains intact to the faithful. Therefore, those who restrict communicants to receive Holy Communion only in the hands are acting against the norms, as are those who refuse to Christ’s faithful [the right] to receive Communion in the hand in dioceses that enjoy this indult.
With attention to the norms concerning the distribution of Holy Communion, ordinary and extraordinary ministers should take care in a particular way that the host is consumed at once by Christ’s faithful, so that no one goes away with the eucharistic species in his hand.
However, let all remember that the time-honored tradition is to receive the host on the tongue. The celebrant priest, if there is a present danger of sacrilege, should not give the faithful communion in the hand, and he should make them aware of the reason for the way of proceeding.

source: [url="http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/can-i-receive-on-the-tongue"]http://www.catholic....e-on-the-tongue[/url]

source: [url="http://relevantradio.com/dailyquestions/communion-in-the-han"]http://relevantradio...nion-in-the-han[/url][/quote]

[quote]Now, if you went a step further, you could make the argument that if someone has a right to do something, it is permissible to disobey any direction contrary to that right. That's an argument, and seems to be what you're suggesting. And it's in this little detail where our disagreement lies.[/quote]

You really should stop with this nonsense of trying to judge peoples hearts or read between the lines bullflop.

[quote]I believe, in the virtue of humility, we have the obligation to obey [i]even [/i]when it contradicts our universal rights, so long as the act of obeying does not bring us into sin.[/quote]

As it pertains to this topic, you would be wrong. We do not have to obey what is unjust.

[quote]When we look at it that way, then the disagreement isn't so great between us, and it isn't necessary for either of us to call the other "ignorant".[/quote]

It wasn't necessary for you to call someone prideful. But you're ignorance of this subject is simply not being informed about this subject. Which is painfully clear.

[quote]But now I see where our real argument lies. I have no interest in defending my position that we should obey even at the cost of our own rights, except to say that it's a matter of piety and humility - which, granted, is something I struggle with.
[/quote]

I see nothing pius or humble of obeying the unjust command of a priest to receive only on the hand when that command is an act against Church Law.

Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Papist]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343839762' post='2461114']
Well, that's the only place we disagree, then, I think. I'm not qualified to answer about the sinfulness of your analogy, but I would say that it's [i]best[/i] to obey, simply because the person is a priest. As in, it's in the best interest of the virtue of humility.
[/quote]

If it is best to obey, I do not know. But it is the safest. I would comply, but it would not end there. God please spare me the day.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343840234' post='2461119']
Yes, that is what I mean by telling. If you are saying we should tell someone they should follow their conscience on this matter, then I agree in that "telling". The person needs to fully own his decision, not just do what I tell him to do b/c he believes I am a very faithful Catholic and trusts that want I am telling him is sound.
[/quote]

I agree. In a similar light the current GIRM makes clear that as it stands now it is up to each communicant, not the priest, not the bishop, if they receive on the hand or on the tongue.

[quote]The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, [u]at the discretion of each communicant.[/u] . . . The priest raises the host slightly and shows it to each, saying, Corpus Christi (the body of Christ). The communicant replies Amen and receives the sacrament either on the tongue or, where this is allowed and if the communicant so chooses, in the hand. (160–161)

Source: [url="http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/can-a-bishop-prohibit-receiving-communion-on-the-tongue"]http://www.catholic....n-on-the-tongue[/url][/quote]

[mortify]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343836675' post='2461093']
I don't see how telling people what to do helps this crisis. We need to inform these people on what the Church teachings are.
[/quote]

A big part of the problem we're in is that we let it happen, and continue to let it happen

[BG45]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1343839708' post='2461113']
On a similar note, if asked to stand when I present myself by kneeling, I would do so so as not to cause a scene. It would upset me, but I would do it. And then I'd try to give benefit of the doubt for the priest, thinking maybe he is unaware that kneeling is allowed. I know that thought wouldn't be my first instinct, as I am often too quick to judge, but hopefully I'd allow God's grace to grant me such thoughts.
[/quote]

This. I know I tried to switch to receiving on the tongue, but I gave up on it because the EMHCs had so many close calls with the Eucharist or would try to deny my Communion because they had no clue you were allowed to receive on the tongue. (On that note, somewhat, my priest the last time I went to Confession, before we started, asked if I knew the old people were talking about me. I told him no and asked why. Apparently my bowing before receiving confused those behind me in line, because they thought all outward signs of respect were done away with in Vatican II.)

Though your hypothetical, and a question copied and pasted a few days ago, does remind me of one place in particular. I don't know if he's been reined in yet, but Bishop Tod Brown used to (hopefully no longer) punish people and deny them the Eucharist for daring to kneel in his Diocese of Orange, new owners of Crystal Cathedral, because he feels that kneeling is [url="http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-kneel28may28,1,6981595.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage"]not a reflection of human dignity[/url]. Actually I was being rather polite to the Bishop, as his station does demand my respect, but to be more precise he endorsed what one if his priests said, which is that[url="http://www.bettnet.com/blog/index.php/weblog/comments/kneeling_as_a_mortal_sin/"] kneeling in the Mass is mortal sin.[/url] In this video for instance, he makes a woman get up before he's willing to allow her the Body of Christ:
media][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0yfdbxr7qM[/media] [/media]

Okay Hijack over.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343840925' post='2461126']
If it is best to obey, I do not know. But it is the safest. I would comply, but it would not end there. God please spare me the day.
[/quote]

I don't know if it's really all that safe. Those that make such request are acting out against and rebelling from the Church. Obeying that act against the Church would not seem the safest bet. The safest would be to find a parish that is in union with Rome in this regard.

[Papist]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1343841335' post='2461132']
A big part of the problem we're in is that we let it happen, and continue to let it happen
[/quote]

But someone just doing what I say does not help the situation.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343840731' post='2461124']
Yes, it is indeed proof. A right cannot be denied it is a right! And incase you missed it priests don't have the authority to and they break Church law if they attempt to require communion in the hand only.

You really should stop with this nonsense of trying to judge peoples hearts or read between the lines bullflop.

As it pertains to this topic, you would be wrong. We do not have to obey what is unjust.

It wasn't necessary for you to call someone prideful. But you're ignorance of this subject is simply not being informed about this subject. Which is painfully clear.

I see nothing pius or humble of obeying the unjust command of a priest to receive only on the hand when that command is an act against Church Law.
[/quote]

Edit: my reply was not very charitable. KoC, I'm sorry for what I said. I will endeavor to stop in this thread now.

Edited August 1, 2012 by fides' Jack

[Papist]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343841503' post='2461136']
I don't know if it's really all that safe. Those that make such request are acting out against and rebelling from the Church. Obeying that act against the Church would not seem the safest bet. The safest would be to find a parish that is in union with Rome in this regard.
[/quote]

Receiving in the hand is valid and you would not be disobeying the Church by doing so. I believe it safer to receive in the hand and let Jesus/Church handle the priest. And as I said before, I would bring this priest's actions to proper Church authority in earnest.

B/c of such a priest/pastor, I moved my family to a different parish...after writing the pastor a letter and CCing the bishop.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Papist

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343842357' post='2461150']
Receiving in the hand is valid and you would not be disobeying the Church by doing so. I believe it safer to receive in the hand at Jesus/Church handle the priest. And as I said before, I would bring this priest's actions to proper Church authority in earnest.

B/c of such a priest/pastor, I moved my family to a different parish...after writing the pastor a letter and CCing the bishop.
[/quote]

This seems to be the best way to handle the situation.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343842357' post='2461150']
Receiving in the hand is valid and you would not be disobeying the Church by doing so. I believe it safer to receive in the hand at Jesus/Church handle the priest. And as I said before, I would bring this priest's actions to proper Church authority in earnest.

B/c of such a priest/pastor, I moved my family to a different parish...after writing the pastor a letter and CCing the bishop.
[/quote]

It isn't valid to force people to receive on the hand, that is an unjust act against the faithful and the Church. I don't believe going along with that unjust act is the safest opinion, because I don't believe it's actually safe. It seems rather dangerous to go along with an act of disobedience against the Church.

Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist