Papist Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343842818' post='2461160'] It isn't valid to force people to receive on the hand, that is an unjust act against the faithful and the Church. I don't believe going along with that unjust act is the safest opinion, because I don't believe it's actually safe. It seems rather dangerous to go along with act of disobedience against the Church. [/quote] Dude. I understand you and agree. I really, really do. But what should one do if the priest/EMHC refuses to minister the Eucharist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 my bishop has directed the priests & parishes of this diocese that the norm is to bow before receiving the Eucharist. I choose to obey my bishop in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1343844058' post='2461165'] my bishop has directed the priests & parishes of this diocese that the norm is to bow before receiving the Eucharist. I choose to obey my bishop in this matter. [/quote] Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) I think directives and just laws can be held in the same regard. If a directive is contradictory to ecclesiastical discipline or law than it is no directive at all. It is not disobedient to refuse to comply with an unjust law, it is also not disobedience to refuse to comply with an unjust directive. edited for spelling & to remove a quote Edited August 1, 2012 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1343844058' post='2461165'] my bishop has directed the priests & parishes of this diocese that the norm is to bow before receiving the Eucharist. I choose to obey my bishop in this matter. [/quote] That's not really "obeying a bishop". it is following the norm of the diocese as instructed by the local ordinary. If your bishop said "the [b]only acceptable [/b]act of reverence before receiving communion is to bow" then it would be obeying your bishop. A norm is a standard. Something contrary to the standard is not disobedience or failure to obey something... it's simply not the norm. However, if a bishop were to give a directive that a bow is the only acceptable form of reference before receiving communion such a directive would be an unjust directive, and no laity or clergy would be required to follow it. If anything, they'd be under more of a moral obligation to charitably show the bishop where such directives are not considered permissable, or report it to Rome as a violation of the rights of the laity. (FYI, the last paragraph was not directed at lil red's quote, just general commentary on the thread) Edited August 1, 2012 by Slappo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1343843408' post='2461163'] Dude. I understand you and agree. I really, really do. But what should one do if the priest/EMHC refuses to minister the Eucharist? [/quote] It's happened to me a couple of times. The first couple of times I just submitted. Which I felt wasn't right, it didn't feel right I know that. The second time the EMHC changed his mind after 10 seconds of me holding my mouth open and waiting. A third time one EMHC outright refused even after 15 seconds of me holding my mouth open, it hurt me so greatly I began to weep, so I got up dried my face with the sleeve of my sheet walked towards the back of the church and got in another line where the Priest honored my right. So I would suggest a person not just give up, try every single priest or EMHC giving out communion, before excepting and submitting to a clear act against the Church. Even not receiving would be an option, one does not have to receive communion every single Sunday, and then that person can raise the issue with the priest. Should he refuse to honor the Church's teaching I would also suggest in that case, as I did before, that if all that fails, find another parish that is in union with and obedient to Rome when it comes to the right to receive communion on the tongue. Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 If you are unjustly refused communion there's a whole plethora of things you could do, and as for what would be "right", that would be up to your conscience or your use of the virtue of prudence to determine what is the best action to take Going to another communion line or waiting patiently would be just two of many options. You could stand and recieve, you could receive on the hand, you could choose not to recieve. After mass is over you could talk to the EHMC about it, you could talk to the preist, the bishop, or even further if no results came from either and write to Rome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343845106' post='2461175'] It's happened to me a couple of times. The first couple of times I just submitted. Which I felt wasn't right, it didn't feel right I know that. The second time the EMHC changed his mind after 10 seconds of me holding my mouth open and waiting. A third time one EMHC outright refused even after 15 seconds of me hold my mouth open, it hurt me so greatly I began to weep, so I got up dried my face with the sleeve of my sheet walked towards the back of the church and got in another line where the Priest honored my right. So I would suggest a person not just give up, try every single priest or EMHC giving out communion, before excepting and submitting to a clear act against the Church. Even not receiving would be an option, one does not have to receive communion every single Sunday, and then that person can raise the issue with the priest. Should he refuse to honor the Church's teaching I would also suggest in that case, as I did before, that if all that fails, find another parish that is in union with and obedient to Rome when it comes to the right to receive communion on the tongue. [/quote] I don't see this being the worst option. In fact, this might be the compromise that I was looking for. You're not really making too much of a scene except perhaps to the people directly behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343845106' post='2461175'] It's happened to me a couple of times. The first couple of times I just submitted. Which I felt wasn't right, it didn't feel right I know that. The second time the EMHC changed his mind after 10 seconds of me holding my mouth open and waiting. A third time one EMHC outright refused even after 15 seconds of me hold my mouth open, it hurt me so greatly I began to weep, so I got up dried my face with the sleeve of my sheet walked towards the back of the church and got in another line where the Priest honored my right. So I would suggest a person not just give up, try every single priest or EMHC giving out communion, before excepting and submitting to a clear act against the Church. Even not receiving would be an option, one does not have to receive communion every single Sunday, and then that person can raise the issue with the priest. Should he refuse to honor the Church's teaching I would also suggest in that case, as I did before, that if all that fails, find another parish that is in union with and obedient to Rome when it comes to the right to receive communion on the tongue. [/quote] I am sorry you had to endure that. That is awful. I certainly would be confronting that priests/EMHC asking them why and what Church document justifies his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1343844805' post='2461170'] That's not really "obeying a bishop". it is following the norm of the diocese as instructed by the local ordinary. If your bishop said "the [b]only acceptable [/b]act of reverence before receiving communion is to bow" then it would be obeying your bishop. A norm is a standard. Something contrary to the standard is not disobedience or failure to obey something... it's simply not the norm. However, if a bishop were to give a directive that a bow is the only acceptable form of reference before receiving communion such a directive would be an unjust directive, and no laity or clergy would be required to follow it. If anything, they'd be under more of a moral obligation to charitably show the bishop where such directives are not considered permissable, or report it to Rome as a violation of the rights of the laity. (FYI, the last paragraph was not directed at lil red's quote, just general commentary on the thread) [/quote] it is an act of obedience when I'd rather genuflect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1343846827' post='2461194'] it is an act of obedience when I'd rather genuflect. [/quote] I see it the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 For the record... [quote][url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/LawText/Index/6/SubIndex/94/LawIndex/47"]Kneeling To Receive Holy Communion[/url] Q: Can the faithful legitimately receive Holy Communion kneeling? A: Yes. Here is a letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship responding to this question on 2/26/03: Prot. N. 47/03/L This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received your letter dated 1 December 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congegation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion. As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear. To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: [b]"...while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops' Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion."[/b] This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again. With every prayerful good wish, I am, Sincerely yours in Christ, Mons. Mario Marini Undersecretary[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 No poo KoC, I am not an idiot and neither is fides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 If it is not [b]disobedient [/b]to kneel when receiving communion, then it is no more an [b]act of obedience[/b] to bow than it would be to genuflect or kneel. It is just as much an act of obedience to genuflect before communion or kneel while receiving communion because regardless of the norms of the diocese, those are all valid postures/acts of reverence. [b]They are all obedient[/b] to the teachings of the Church on what is appropriate at mass. So sure, call it an act of obedience to your local bishop, and I'll call kneeling for communion an act of obedience to mine even though he has the same norm for his diocese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1343854547' post='2461243'] No poo KoC, I am not an idiot and neither is fides. [/quote] I don't understand why you seem offended. I posted it for the record it wasn't directed towards you. It was somewhat directed to Fides, because it goes to the earlier issue he repeatedly asked me to prove, wether the faithful are disobedient if they do not [i]obey[/i] a request that denies them the use of their universal rights under Church law. The letter is proof positive such persons are not to be thought as disobedient or accused of it. That said I do not believe you or he are idiots, you are both intelligent persons, who I do have respect for and pray for. Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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