Tally Marx Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343979942' post='2461933'] I think most people recognise a fetus as a human. [/quote] Actually, not many people truly recognize this. There is a blog for an abortion clinic which, only last months, proudly showed off their patient's ignorance as to this "clump of tissue". It might be alive; it might be human; it might be individual. But it isn't "us". As I said before, the vast majority of people I speak with (who may or may not be contemplating abortion) have found many creative ways to convince themselves that the unborn isn't a "person". They often show a grave misunderstanding of what the zygote/embryo/fetus is and isn't, as well as what humans in general are and aren't. I have experienced some amount of...succes, if that is the proper word...in debating the logical consistency of "personhood" arguments. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343979942' post='2461933'] Yes, I have heard women state that their body is at risk, that pregnancy changes their hormones, their shape, makes them feel sick etc Thus they deem it their decision to protect themselves. However I doubt this is the reason why they abort. [/quote] I believe you would be correct. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343979942' post='2461933'] I would say most people abort either because they are too young, not in a stable relationship, can't afford it, have other plans e.g. school or career or have found out that there is something wrong with the baby. I'm not sure how you would convince a person not to abort. [/quote] Most do. If you are dealing with them individually in the moment they are considering abortion, it is best to address their individual fears. Offering to personally adopt the child, showing how even a child with disabilities can be happy, offering financial help, etc. etc. It is the easiest and fastest way to reach them when you meet them at the doors of the Delta Clinic. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343979942' post='2461933'] I certainly think appeals to it being human or to morality will not work. [/quote] They do. They work mostly on those who have abstracted the unborn, and these people have the greatest hand in convincing women to have abortions. In the fear and stress of the moment--in the rather short amount of time between a woman's finding out she is pregnant and having an abortion--these "logical" arguments for the "otherness" of the unborn may not be utmost on the mother's mind, but they are there. Our young people (or not so young people, since this has been going on for decades) are trained and conditioned to deny the equality and humanity of the unborn. Were it not so, they would not so easily have abortions. The notion to kill an unborn human individual for the sake of money, career, etc. would no more enter their heads than the idea to kill a born one. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1343979942' post='2461933'] But it would be interesting to hear from anyone that has been able to convince someone not to, and what they did to achieve this result. [/quote] There was a young girl, thirteen, who was raped and became pregnant as a result. She was told by her parents and the abortionist that the baby probably wouldn't survive the delivery, and that she definitely wouldn't, and that even if she and the baby survived, no one would want to adopt a bi-racial child, anyway. She was at the clinic, on the table, when due to a complication (a certain test had been omitted, I believe) the operation was postponed one week. During that week, the young mother took it upon herself to research abortion procedures and developmental information. This research brought her to the CBR, and through their website she was presented with, not only the undeniable humanity of the unborn, but with a worker who was indeed willing to adopt a bi-racial child. She decided against abortion, had as easy a delivery as any young woman can be expected to have, and is now good friends with the woman who adopted her son. I have spoken with the CBR worker who adopted the boy. My GYN is also an OB. Her office is directly accross from a clinic, and many are the times that a woman will come to her accidentally, thinking they are at the abortion clinic, or just for a second opinion. She provides them with a free ultra sound. No woman she has ever helped under these circumstances has ever had an abortion. Appeals to humanity, morality, and logic do help. They help in the long term and on a large scale, very well. They get rid of the conditioning and half-truths that often subconsciously affect our women. They also help on an individual level; yet they should not be alone. I have yet to hear of or meet a single woman who logicked herself into the decision to have an abortion, and it is exceedingly difficult to logic someone out of something they didn't logic themselves into. If you know someone who is thinking of having an abortion in the next few weeks or so, help first and logic later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) I've been watching this thread happen (really really hope the fiddler gets that) and its really frustrating reading your posts stevil. Here is my biggest problem with your posts, separate from the fact that I disagree with your position. My problem is that you seem to be arguing from a vacuum. Let me explain. While you keep repeating that you view the only purpose of law to be a stable society, your even more overwhelming assertion is that if it doesn't effect you, it isn't really important. The problem is, we live in a society where ALL our actions effect people. We don't live in a vacuum. An action might not have a discernible effect that you can see, but it doesn't mean that the action has no effect on society. These things might not seem to effect you, but they do. Now you could argue about what the actual effect of actions are, or if they are worth doing something about, but don't deny they have an effect. *edit: it didn't Edited August 3, 2012 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1343998997' post='2461982'] It is the goal of society to create common laws (rules) to allow the maximum survival and freedom for the maximum amount of people. [/quote] I disagree with this. Not a goal I would support my government on. [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1343998997' post='2461982'] it's hard to argue against that every human has an equal right to live and the existence should not be subject to the whims of those more powerful. [/quote] I feel it is hard to argue for forcing mothers against their will to have babies. It is certainly not something I support. It is not a government issue. [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1343998997' post='2461982'] That's is one of the foundations of demanding respect for ourselves. You and I shouldn't be asking for something for ourselves that we would deny to others. [/quote] I respect others by letting them make their own choices, not by forcing my will onto them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344022072' post='2462264'] We don't live in a vacuum. An action might not have a discernible effect that you can see, but it doesn't mean that the action has no effect on society. These things might not seem to effect you, but they do. [/quote] Do you take this to mean that it is your business to decide how others are to behave on all aspects of their lives? They need your approval with regards to whom they marry, how many children they have, what car they buy, where they live? The Chinese government used to have that type of control over its people. Its not my cup of tea, but I suppose some people might like to live in that society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344026761' post='2462352'] Do you take this to mean that it is your business to decide how others are to behave on all aspects of their lives? They need your approval with regards to whom they marry, how many children they have, what car they buy, where they live? The Chinese government used to have that type of control over its people. Its not my cup of tea, but I suppose some people might like to live in that society. [/quote] Nope. Not what I'm saying, try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344027030' post='2462356'] Nope. Not what I'm saying, try again. [/quote] So then I have to ask, why are other people's abortions your business but not other people's marriages? <Of course, you will have noticed that this is a loaded question> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344027261' post='2462365'] So then I have to ask, why are other people's abortions your business but not other people's marriages? <Of course, you will have noticed that this is a loaded question> [/quote] Well that's a different question than your first one. Your first one included number of children, what type of car, and where someone would live. And I think the difference between the two is rather obvious. Last time I checked, no one loses their life in a marriage ceremony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344027526' post='2462372'] Well that's a different question than your first one. Your first one included number of children, what type of car, and where someone would live. And I think the difference between the two is rather obvious. Last time I checked, no one loses their life in a marriage ceremony. [/quote] So you are ok for same sex couples to get married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344028441' post='2462388'] So you are ok for same sex couples to get married? [/quote] Well no, I don't think that would be a marriage. Nice try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344029327' post='2462400'] Well no, I don't think that would be a marriage. Nice try though. [/quote] So you want a law against it. To force these people not to be married. Are you OK with people having IVF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344022072' post='2462264'] We don't live in a vacuum. An action might not have a discernible effect that you can see, but it doesn't mean that the action has no effect on society. These things might not seem to effect you, but they do. [/quote] Ampax, I'm trying to understand this statement that you made. It is very broad, no clear boundaries. I am trying to establish what your premise is for using government to force people to behave how you want them to behave. I am trying to work out whether you tie it back to how it impacts you, or if you merely want to control people because you feel the law allows you to do that, whether it impacts you or not. You obviously don't trust people to make decisions for themselves thus want law to control them to conform to your idea of what is "right" behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344030876' post='2462413'] Ampax, I'm trying to understand this statement that you made. It is very broad, no clear boundaries. I am trying to establish what your premise is for using government to force people to behave how you want them to behave. I am trying to work out whether you tie it back to how it impacts you, or if you merely want to control people because you feel the law allows you to do that, whether it impacts you or not. You obviously don't trust people to make decisions for themselves thus want law to control them to conform to your idea of what is "right" behaviour. [/quote] Hey don't want you to think I'm ignoring this, but I'm super busy right now, and I actually want to try and give a thoughtful, thought out response. I'm going to go through this backwards really quickly. Right off the bat, I would disagree with your last sentence, but its going to take a lot more time than I have now to fully respond. In response to the middle, its not either/or. And you're right, it was a pretty broad statement, I was responding pretty quickly, and didn't express my thought as well as I would have liked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 Why argue with a nihilist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344180790' post='2462953'] Why argue with a nihilist? [/quote] I like the feel of brickdust in my forehead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 5, 2012 Share Posted August 5, 2012 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1344180844' post='2462954'] I like the feel of brickdust in my forehead. [/quote] Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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