What Should I Do?

[Spem in alium]

The answer's probably obvious, but if someone was baptised a Catholic but renounces the faith, denies the existence of God and stops attending Mass, would they be in an automatic state of mortal sin? And what's the best way to deal with people who are going through such things?

Been experiencing this with a close family member for over a year now, and have no idea of what to do (if anything). I'm scared to do much as this person's quite aggressive and abusive, but it just makes me sad that they've denied God and the beauty of the Church. Any guidance would be great.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343017445' post='2457981']
The answer's probably obvious, but if someone was baptised a Catholic but renounces the faith, denies the existence of God and stops attending Mass, would they be in an automatic state of mortal sin? And what's the best way to deal with people who are going through such things?

Been experiencing this with a close family member for over a year now, and have no idea of what to do (if anything). I'm scared to do much as this person's quite aggressive and abusive, but it just makes me sad that they've denied God and the beauty of the Church. Any guidance would be great.
[/quote]

Love them. As best you can. I don't know the specifics of the situation, and so specific advice probably isn't something I could offer. But show them love, and show them Christ through your actions. You don't have to say anything.

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1343017602' post='2457982']
Love them. As best you can. I don't know the specifics of the situation, and so specific advice probably isn't something I could offer. But show them love, and show them Christ through your actions. You don't have to say anything.
[/quote]

Thanks, Amppax. I really do need to love them better. At the moment I close myself off to this person, mostly because I'm scared of them. When I think about it, they probably do need to be shown a lot more kindness even if it's not appreciated or reciprocated. Will work on it.

[Jaime]

This sounds weird to say but, whether or not they are in mortal sin is irrelevant right now. Renouncing God holds the same weight. What can you do? You can pray. You can pray a lot. You can do sacrificial prayer for the protection of their soul. You can pray for all unbelievers everywhere. You can clean your house better than you've ever cleaned it and offer it as prayer for the unrepentant souls. You can offer every suffering of every day for the conversion of hardened obstinate sinners. If you have a bad habit, you can give it up as more sacrificial prayer. You can pray your rosary every day. You can go to confession regularly so that when you pray, you are in a state of grace.

Did I mention prayer?

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1343021440' post='2458006']
This sounds weird to say but, whether or not they are in mortal sin is irrelevant right now. Renouncing God holds the same weight. What can you do? You can pray. You can pray a lot. You can do sacrificial prayer for the protection of their soul. You can pray for all unbelievers everywhere. You can clean your house better than you've ever cleaned it and offer it as prayer for the unrepentant souls. You can offer every suffering of every day for the conversion of hardened obstinate sinners. If you have a bad habit, you can give it up as more sacrificial prayer. You can pray your rosary every day. You can go to confession regularly so that when you pray, you are in a state of grace.

Did I mention prayer?
[/quote]

Thank you, this is really great advice. I do pray for this person, but there's always so much more I can do. I will try and incorporate all of these things into my life, though I do have a couple of queries relating to what you said:

To be honest, I've actually never heard the term "sacrificial prayer" before - is that when you offer something such as work or suffering as a form of prayer? Or does it have a different meaning?

Also, I've never really known how to offer work as prayer. I've tried it before, but didn't feel as though I was doing it right. What's the best way of going about it? I want to learn to do it properly, as I think it's quite a valuable practice.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343022594' post='2458016']
Thank you, this is really great advice. I do pray for this person, but there's always so much more I can do. I will try and incorporate all of these things into my life, though I do have a couple of queries relating to what you said:

To be honest, I've actually never heard the term "sacrificial prayer" before - is that when you offer something such as work or suffering as a form of prayer? Or does it have a different meaning?

Also, I've never really known how to offer work as prayer. I've tried it before, but didn't feel as though I was doing it right. What's the best way of going about it? I want to learn to do it properly, as I think it's quite a valuable practice.
[/quote]

St Therese believed that any act could be sacred. She believed that by sweeping the floor to the best of her ability and offering it to Jesus, it could redeem souls. I was in a similar situation where someone I cared about renounced God. I couldn't talk her out of it so I quit smoking as a sacrificial prayer. Everytime I wanted to smoke, I'd ask myself if it was worth her soul? The answer has been "no" for five years now. Will it save her soul? I have no idea. But I know that no prayer goes wasted. And I know I don't smoke.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343018205' post='2457986']


Thanks, Amppax. I really do need to love them better. At the moment I close myself off to this person, mostly because I'm scared of them. When I think about it, they probably do need to be shown a lot more kindness even if it's not appreciated or reciprocated. Will work on it.
[/quote] It sounds as though you and your kin have had perhaps a heated discussion(s)?

Perhaps loving and praying from a distance for a time would be better. Then again perhaps simply waiting for when your kin is in a better mood is better. It
depends on the kind of concern you have for their lack of kindness.

But I would suggest

love, pray and have hope for them, pray for them whenever you pray

lead by example, preach the gospel without words, strive to live the Christian life to your fullest

Listen to them, try to find out why they began to doubt, what were they dealing with when they began to doubt. So that you may understand why they do not believe.

Be patient, it may take a very long time before their heart is converted.

Be humble, do not raise your voice in anger (even if they do) in you and your kin's conversations of God or His Church. If they ask questions you cannot answer again be humble and tell them you do not yet have one but will get back to them. And actually find the answer and get back to them! Lol

Yet be strong, be not afraid, preach the gospel with words, defend the Truth when you know you should.

Trust in God, no matter what.

[Jaime]

maybe make a pie too.

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343024039' post='2458035']
It sounds as though you and your kin have had perhaps a heated discussion(s)?

Perhaps loving and praying from a distance for a time would be better. Then again perhaps simply waiting for when your kin is in a better mood is better. It
depends on the kind of concern you have for their lack of kindness.

But I would suggest

love, pray and have hope for them, pray for them whenever you pray

lead by example, preach the gospel without words, strive to live the Christian life to your fullest

Listen to them, try to find out why they began to doubt, what were they dealing with when they began to doubt. So that you may understand why they do not believe.

Be patient, it may take a very long time before their heart is converted.

Be humble, do not raise your voice in anger (even if they do) in you and your kin's conversations of God or His Church. If they ask questions you cannot answer again be humble and tell them you do not yet have one but will get back to them. And actually find the answer and get back to them! Lol

Yet be strong, be not afraid, preach the gospel with words, defend the Truth when you know you should.

Trust in God, no matter what.
[/quote]

Thank you for your advice. In the past the family has had heated discussions, with much of the anger coming from this particular person. They will argue against God and Christ unceasingly without making any substantial points, and this tends to upset others. I try to stay out of such discussions even if they upset me. It can be hard, but I prefer not to contribute to the dissent. Plus, I do value silence and listening over any drive to challenge others or make a point I see as correct.

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1343024401' post='2458037']
maybe make a pie too.
[/quote]

I will do this. I like pie.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343027379' post='2458047']


Thank you for your advice. In the past the family has had heated discussions, with much of the anger coming from this particular person. They will argue against God and Christ unceasingly without making any substantial points, and this tends to upset others. I try to stay out of such discussions even if they upset me. It can be hard, but I prefer not to contribute to the dissent. Plus, I do value silence and listening over any drive to challenge others or make a point I see as correct.
[/quote]

For whatever the advise is worth to you, you are welcomed. It is probably best to avoid those discussions that you know would cause more problems than fix and remain silent during them is wise too. But there will, God willing, be brief moments were you can piously and ever so slightly preach the Gospel with words. If but a few simple words. Those seeds could grow.

Edited July 23, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343022594' post='2458016']
Thank you, this is really great advice. I do pray for this person, but there's always so much more I can do. I will try and incorporate all of these things into my life, though I do have a couple of queries relating to what you said:

To be honest, I've actually never heard the term "sacrificial prayer" before - is that when you offer something such as work or suffering as a form of prayer? Or does it have a different meaning?

Also, I've never really known how to offer work as prayer. I've tried it before, but didn't feel as though I was doing it right. What's the best way of going about it? I want to learn to do it properly, as I think it's quite a valuable practice.
[/quote]

What you can do or what god can do through your intercession. I offer up half of whatever blessing,absolution and indulgence i will recieve from the precious body and blood for others, i guess that is a simple sacrificial prayer you may try. But than again don't trust me coz unsure if where allowed to do that coz it's like the precious body and blood, but than if even one micron particle is as powerful as a wafer plenty to go around. Hope that helps. Oh yes and pray for them to, i do that also.

edit: p.s. after recieving communion or when lining up for communion i offer up the names and ask GOD to give them half of whatever i am to recieve. I heard 6 minutes or something of silence after recieving communion was advised by vatican 2, if it is true and was practised thats ample time to offer up like 50 names. Maybe i will be longer in purgatory for this due to not recieving the entirety of the grace from communion but aye alleluia if it saves others and gets them quicker into heaven i cazn do the purgatory time instead of them, like the good samaritan said "i will pay every thing owing on my return."

edit2: oh also after i offer up the names in thought prayer, i pray thoughtfully in my mind an our father and a hail mary and a glory be if time permits. And on thought prayer it can be done in public anywhere any time. Even a simple JESUS i trust in you if pressed for time.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343029812' post='2458053']
For whatever the advise is worth to you, you are welcomed. It is probably best to avoid those discussions that you know would cause more problems than fix and remain silent during them is wise too. But there will, God willing, be brief moments were you can piously and ever so slightly preach the Gospel with words. If but a few simple words. Those seeds could grow.
[/quote]

It's worth very much, really. I hope those opportunities become more regular.

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1343033645' post='2458057']
What you can do or what god can do through your intercession. I offer up half of whatever blessing,absolution and indulgence i will recieve from the precious body and blood for others, i guess that is a simple sacrificial prayer you may try. But than again don't trust me coz unsure if where allowed to do that coz it's like the precious body and blood, but than if even one micron particle is as powerful as a wafer plenty to go around. Hope that helps. Oh yes and pray for them to, i do that also.

edit: p.s. after recieving communion or when lining up for communion i offer up the names and ask GOD to give them half of whatever i am to recieve. I heard 6 minutes or something of silence after recieving communion was advised by vatican 2, if it is true and was practised thats ample time to offer up like 50 names. Maybe i will be longer in purgatory for this due to not recieving the entirety of the grace from communion but aye alleluia if it saves others and gets them quicker into heaven i cazn do the purgatory time instead of them, like the good samaritan said "i will pay every thing owing on my return."

edit2: oh also after i offer up the names in thought prayer, i pray thoughtfully in my mind an our father and a hail mary and a glory be if time permits. And on thought prayer it can be done in public anywhere any time. Even a simple JESUS i trust in you if pressed for time.
[/quote]

Thanks Tab! You made some really interesting points. I will try and dedicate more of my life to others. And I will try and pray more. I was getting into a habit of praying very regularly, but I find I'm often too distracted now. By no means an excuse. I'll make more of an effort.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Spem in alium

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1343021440' post='2458006']
You can do sacrificial prayer for the protection of their soul...If you have a bad habit, you can give it up as more sacrificial prayer.
[/quote]

Jaime, I just wanted to thank you so much for these particular suggestions. Yesterday I resolved myself to give up a bad habit for the preservation and protection of this person's soul, and now things feel a lot different. I've struggled for a while to give up this particular habit, and now it's like I've got a NEED to do it for this person. Maybe that's silly. But it's given me more direction I've had in a long time, so thank you.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343035974' post='2458058']
I find I'm often too distracted now. By no means an excuse. I'll make more of an effort.
[/quote]

This may help with that problem and help you with your prayer life in general as well.


[url="http://deaconlincoln.wordpress.com/2011/12/28/bishop-sheen-on-prayer/"][b]Bishop Sheen on Prayer[/b][/url]

Distractions are unavoidable.
Only solution?
Ignore distractions…

Everyone prays, but many times it is in time of need and usually material needs.
The question becomes, “Are we really seeking to Love God or are we seeking favors?” We may be missing a deeper relationship with God when we only wish for these material things.
In the Gospel of Luke 11th chapter. Is there a Father among you that would give his son a snake when he asks for a fish? Or a scorpion when he asks for an egg?
Our blessed Lord says you will get something else. There is no prayer actually that is unanswered.

Prayer of an Unknown Confederate Soldier, aka The Creed for the Disabled:
I asked God for strength that I might achieve. 
I was made weak that I might learn humbly to obey.

I asked for health that I might do greater things.
 I was given infirmity that I might do better things.

I asked for riches that I might be happy. 
I was given poverty that I might be wise.

I asked for power that I might have the praise of men.
 I was given weakness that I might feel the need of God.

I asked for all things that I might enjoy life. 
I was given life that I might enjoy all things.

I got nothing that I asked for, but everything I hoped for. 
Almost despite myself, my unspoken prayers were answered. 
I am, among all men, most richly blessed.

We are dealing with an infinite mind and we not understand God’s ways.
Our finiteness can not grasp the infinite.

There are two kinds of prayers that are generally answered:
1. Prayers for others;
2. [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/churches/cathteach/mary_sheen_devotion.html"][b]Prayers that request some kind of trial in order to save a soul.[/b][/url]

Three kinds of prayer

1. Lip prayer-vocal prayer, the kind we know by heart, out of a book, and pray together. Generally if these are simply said without the head/heart they are not real prayers.

2. Head prayer – meditation. This requires silence. A simple way to meditate is to pick up the NT and start with the Gospel of Mark and read a passage. Then simply start to think about it. Jesus healed the sick, but he left them and did not cure them all. He went up on the hill side to talk to his disciples alone. We need a starter and that’s where scripture comes in and apply it to our own life. When you run out of thoughts then go back again to scripture. It takes a long time to meditate. Our Lord rising from the dead and the road to Emmaus. This is a 7 mile journey. What has happened? We thought Jesus of Nazareth was going to save Israel-Politics. Did you not know that the Son of Man must suffer in order to enter into his Glory. When we meditate on scripture the Lord may appear as a stranger, but as we walk on He starts to reveal Himself to us. We need to talk to Our Lord when we meditate. In silence God will speak to you.

3. Heart prayer – This is Love. Words are not so much used, but there is a continual sense of the presence of God. The conversation of lovers. Like a teenager on the phone. What were you talking about? Nothing.
We are to carry the atmosphere of the presence of God with us. This is really what prayer is… continual presence of God in our lives. This can lead to action prayer; whatever we do in life turned into prayer.

It does not make any difference what we are doing, but rather what we are thinking about. The fulfillment of our vocation is what matters, not what that particular vocation may be. All action is a reflex to prayer. We must give the primacy to prayer not action. Prayer leads to proper action not action to prayer. The first word of our Lord was come, and the last was go. First come to the Lord then go and spread the love. Prayer is simply being in love.

Edited July 25, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[4588686]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1343017445' post='2457981']
The answer's probably obvious, but if someone was baptised a Catholic but renounces the faith, denies the existence of God and stops attending Mass, would they be in an automatic state of mortal sin? And what's the best way to deal with people who are going through such things?

Been experiencing this with a close family member for over a year now, and have no idea of what to do (if anything). I'm scared to do much as this person's quite aggressive and abusive, but it just makes me sad that they've denied God and the beauty of the Church. Any guidance would be great.
[/quote]

You should give them money.