Unique Experience Today

[To Jesus Through Mary]

So I keep seeing a sister from the order I was with at a parish I frequent. Honestly I have kept my distance for emotional reasons. But today I was sitting like two rows behind her in Mass and I thought to myself, this is stupid! She and I worked together for several weeks. She is a wonderful person. So I went up beside her and asked to sit with her. Of course she agreed. We got to talking after Mass and she gave me her contact info. And said like 5 times "If you need anything, anything at all please call me". I just realized in that moment, she is still my sister. I love her and she loves me. I really am going to take her up on her offer, just to spend time with her. Even if it is just doing apostolate stuff. It was just a really beautiful moment. There is nothing like a sisters love.

[Mary's Margaret]

....and God is such a good Father to bring His daughters together! Very happy for you.

[Totally Franciscan]

I think this is the way it should be for those who leave an order. I have heard that many orders will not even talk to anyone who has left, which I think is uncharitable. I was in two orders; the first one I continue to have communications, even phone calls from my mistress and other sisters. It just warms my heart. The second order refused to have any communication with me (my idea to leave, not theirs) and treat me like persona non grata. To Jesus Through Mary, I am so glad you went up to your sister. That was a beautiful encounter that brought tears to my eyes.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1342991929' post='2457915']
I think this is the way it should be for those who leave an order. I have heard that many orders will not even talk to anyone who has left, which I think is uncharitable. I was in two orders; the first one I continue to have communications, even phone calls from my mistress and other sisters. It just warms my heart. The second order refused to have any communication with me (my idea to leave, not theirs) and treat me like persona non grata. To Jesus Through Mary, I am so glad you went up to your sister. That was a beautiful encounter that brought tears to my eyes.
[/quote]

That's awful. It's one thing to allow the person to move on. Quite another when you disengage from any form of communication altogether. I know it's difficult for a community when someone leaves, but they should understand that God is always moving and changing. He gave us free will. Whether or not He calls for a short time is not for us to say. The fact of the matter is that people build up such strong relationships in community life. There is nothing more upsetting than being ignored or forgotten by friends. But then again, Jesus had to endure it on the cross when all but one disciple (John the Beloved) left Him alone.

I kind of felt outcast when I stopped discerning with an order back in 2009. I had applied to enter and the Sisters asked me to work in their apostolate for pay so I could pay off my debts. When it didn't work out and I ended up leaving 3 days later, I never once heard from them again. Not "how are you doing?" or "are you OK?" It made me feel like it was all for nothing. I realized that I'm not called there, but I became friends with some of the Sisters. It was hard not to feel upset about the way things ended, but there was nothing I could do about it since I was in ill health.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1342991929' post='2457915']
I think this is the way it should be for those who leave an order. I have heard that many orders will not even talk to anyone who has left, which I think is uncharitable. I was in two orders; the first one I continue to have communications, even phone calls from my mistress and other sisters. It just warms my heart. The second order refused to have any communication with me (my idea to leave, not theirs) and treat me like persona non grata. To Jesus Through Mary, I am so glad you went up to your sister. That was a beautiful encounter that brought tears to my eyes.
[/quote]
[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1343025231' post='2458045']
That's awful. It's one thing to allow the person to move on. Quite another when you disengage from any form of communication altogether. I know it's difficult for a community when someone leaves, but they should understand that God is always moving and changing. He gave us free will. Whether or not He calls for a short time is not for us to say. The fact of the matter is that people build up such strong relationships in community life. There is nothing more upsetting than being ignored or forgotten by friends. But then again, Jesus had to endure it on the cross when all but one disciple (John the Beloved) left Him alone.

I kind of felt outcast when I stopped discerning with an order back in 2009. I had applied to enter and the Sisters asked me to work in their apostolate for pay so I could pay off my debts. When it didn't work out and I ended up leaving 3 days later, I never once heard from them again. Not "how are you doing?" or "are you OK?" It made me feel like it was all for nothing. I realized that I'm not called there, but I became friends with some of the Sisters. It was hard not to feel upset about the way things ended, but there was nothing I could do about it since I was in ill health.
[/quote]

This is so sad. I hope it doesn't happen to me, but like you said, God is in charge. If He wants us with a community for only a year...then that is what will happen. It is difficult though, understandably so, to leave the convent, as I have heard it described as being married to all your sisters. That sounds strange, but I hope it relays the point without sounding TOO strange!

Leaving a group of people you are so closely bonded to-you call each other Sister for goodness sake!-sounds like it would be difficult. I imagine the reality is even more rough.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1343029164' post='2458052']
This is so sad. I hope it doesn't happen to me, but like you said, God is in charge. If He wants us with a community for only a year...then that is what will happen. It is difficult though, understandably so, to leave the convent, as I have heard it described as being married to all your sisters. That sounds strange, but I hope it relays the point without sounding TOO strange!

Leaving a group of people you are so closely bonded to-you call each other Sister for goodness sake!-sounds like it would be difficult. I imagine the reality is even more rough.
[/quote]

Yes, that's what community life is for. Granted, there is the understanding that none of the Sisters should get TOO close because community life is not about exclusive relationships. Embracing the vow of chastity means loving everyone the same as Christ loves them. When you become too close with one of your Sisters, there is a danger of becoming clique-ish and your focus needs to be totally on Jesus Christ and serving Him.

This took me a long time to understand what that means. I thought it was an arbitrary rule, but I think it is so important now. It's not only necessary in the community but outside with lay people as well.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

And Emmaberry- also don't let all the stories of people leaving scare you. There are still many who enter religious life one time and it works out beautifully. There were 11 in my class, including myself. 10 still remain and are approach vows in the Fall. There are several CFR friars making final vows this Sunday. There are so many joyful religious here in NYC that will most likely progressive forward without leaving. Because there are quite a few who have left here, there are still more who stayed- they just don't post on internet forums mostly.

God had a different path in store for a few of us here. Is it painful? Sure. Jesus told us it would be. God's will above all things.

(What MM said about exclusive friends is spot on. Nothing to add there)

[mantellata]

I might add that there is a difference between "exclusive friends" (what used to be called particular friendships) and having a "close friend". Exclusive friendships are just that - exclusive. It is kind of a sick and sad mimicking or replacement for the exclusivity that is proper to a husband and wife (I'm not speaking sexually here but something of the heart).

I had Sisters in my former community with whom I had a closer friendship then others. Part of this was personality, part of this was circumstance (if we were on mission together - and so the smaller group made it possible to get to know them better) but the main thing was not that you had a [u]close[/u] friendship with someone but that it didn't exclude others or the possibility of either you or your "Sister friend" becoming close friends with someone else. True friendship seeks the good of the other and so jealousy does not enter in. In practice this meant that if another Sister wanted to join us for recreation - she was joyfully included. Also, I had to make sure that I was actively seeking to develop my relationship with my other Sisters - so I wasn't always "seeking out" those Sisters with whom I found it easier to get along with at recreation or for a work project or whatever. In addition, the movement was outward -- so the desire was more that others [u]would[/u] get to know better and spend time with those Sisters with whom I had a close friendship. I thought they were pretty amesome and so I wanted others to experience how wonderful my friend was.

I add this because sometimes people think that avoiding "exclusive friendships" means never developing close friendships with anyone, or getting worried that one prefers the company of one to another. The emotion or the preference is not the point - rather it is educating the heart on loving correctly.... which is actually loving more and truer and establishing better and closer friendships. Our hearts were made for for true friendship -- in it we image the Trinity!

[emmaberry]

Thanks for all the details about close friendships-I found it very helpful...I do think rules against exclusive friendships are necessary, or at least useful, especially in the cloister where the sisters are always elbow to elbow with each other. Religious life would quickly develop into hell if cliques were formed and encouraged...that would be terrible.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1343081459' post='2458263']
Thanks for all the details about close friendships-I found it very helpful...I do think rules against exclusive friendships are necessary, or at least useful, especially in the cloister where the sisters are always elbow to elbow with each other. Religious life would quickly develop into hell if cliques were formed and encouraged...that would be terrible.
[/quote]

St. Teresa of Avila reformed the Carmelite order to include that none of the Sisters speak directly to each other -- only through the Reverend Mother -- during recreation. This helped them detach themselves from worldly relationships in order to maintain pure friendships with the entire community. They also are supposed be doing small work during recreation. Some orders, like the 1991s have loosened this rule to allow Sisters to enjoy playing board games, but most 1990 cloisters keep the rule in place.

Franciscan orders are quite different, however, in that their recreation is filled with laughter and games -- not work. When I visited the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal, their meal time also doubled as their recreation time. It was so beautiful to see such a lively bunch and I loved being a part of it for a few days.

I'm not sure how my current order does recreation or handles relationships, but I do know that they are allowed internet access to stay in touch with friends as I am friends with one of my hopeful future Sisters.

[mantellata]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1343085610' post='2458274']
St. Teresa of Avila reformed the Carmelite order to include that none of the Sisters speak directly to each other -- only through the Reverend Mother -- during recreation.
[/quote]

0_0 and this is yet another reason why I lean towards the [u][i]Dominicans.[/i][/u]

I've also heard that the Carmelites (in some monasteries) may not touch / hug each other...Luckily both Dominicans and Franciscans do not seem to have such qualms.

To each his own I suppose!

[emmaberry]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1343098583' post='2458324']
I've also heard that the Carmelites (in some monasteries) may not touch / hug each other...Luckily both Dominicans and Franciscans do not seem to have such qualms.[/quote]

I have heard this too about Franciscans, which is why I said 'huh?' when Diane Sawyer said the Roswell PCCs don't hug or have any physical contact...although her credibility was shot in that interview when she said they don't do anything that gives them any kind of pleasure (the way she said it implied it meant happiness.) Poor Clares are known by their chaplains for being the happiest ladies in the world, so this is certainly not true!
(3:10 is when she makes the comment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm_8MUct7VA

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='mantellata' timestamp='1343098583' post='2458324']
0_0 and this is yet another reason why I lean towards the [u][i]Dominicans.[/i][/u]

I've also heard that the Carmelites (in some monasteries) may not touch / hug each other...Luckily both Dominicans and Franciscans do not seem to have such qualms.

To each his own I suppose!
[/quote]



I imagine it would be rather difficult. I remember in The Nun's Story how the postulants were taught to only tug on the sleeve when they needed to speak to a Sister. They were never allowed to touch each other. I think that's why Sr. Marie Christine (Simone) had such difficulty -- she needed to be able to speak without worrying and didn't like the lack of Sisterly contact. I wouldn't like it either as I was raised in a house with huggers so I like being able to embrace.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1343085610' post='2458274']
St. Teresa of Avila reformed the Carmelite order to include that none of the Sisters speak directly to each other -- only through the Reverend Mother -- during recreation. This helped them detach themselves from worldly relationships in order to maintain pure friendships with the entire community. They also are supposed be doing small work during recreation. Some orders, like the 1991s have loosened this rule to allow Sisters to enjoy playing board games, but most 1990 cloisters keep the rule in place.

Franciscan orders are quite different, however, in that their recreation is filled with laughter and games -- not work. When I visited the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal, their meal time also doubled as their recreation time. It was so beautiful to see such a lively bunch and I loved being a part of it for a few days.

I'm not sure how my current order does recreation or handles relationships, but I do know that they are allowed internet access to stay in touch with friends as I am friends with one of my hopeful future Sisters.
[/quote]

A few inaccuracies in this post. St Teresa did not forbid the nuns to speak to each other directly at recreation - this was a custom that was established later (as many were) and persisted in many Carmels until after Vatican II. Now it is not at all the norm, although I have been in two Carmels where Recreation is still conducted through the Prioress. Communities of the 1991 Constitutions however, have almost all dropped this. Nuns may definitely speak with each other now at Recreation and different communities allow different levels of freedom during this time. Carmelite nuns are very close to each other as sisters and family and there is no lacking of affection or warmth in a Carmelite convent. They are not allowed to touch each other in familar ways of course, but they give each other a hug (the monastic kiss of peace on each cheek) on special occasions (clothing, professions, election of Prioress, entering or leaving the monastery for a time away).

There is a book called '[i]Libro de recreaciones' [/i](the copy I read in English was translated into [i]'Book for the Hour of Recreation') [/i]by the first Prioress of Seville, Maria de San Jose Salazar in which the nuns often walk together in the garden (sometimes in pairs) during Recreation discussing many things of a spiritual nature, including the life of their foundress St Teresa (Maria de San Jose and Teresa spent a year together at Seville when Teresa took her there as Prioress). Maria went through a lot of persecution by Doria and died as a virtual prisioner in a convent but she wrote a lot and always defended their foundress against attacks and even gave testimony at Teresa's beatification.

Some excerpts of her writings are here [url="http://home.infionline.net/~ddisse/mariajos.html"]http://home.infionli...e/mariajos.html[/url]




Available at Amazon here
[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226734544?tag=openlibr-20"]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0226734544?tag=openlibr-20[/url]

Book for the hour of recreation / Maria de San Jose Salazar; introduction and notes by Alison Weber; translation by Amanda Powell (The other voice in early modern Europe). Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2002. (xxx, 173 p.)
LC#: BX4700.T4 M313 2002; ISBN: 0226734544, 0226734552
Includes bibliographical references (p. 165-168) and index

Edited July 24, 2012 by nunsense

[To Jesus Through Mary]

So today I am heading out to DC to take care of some business. Tomorrow I will be seeing my spiritual director who is from the IVE. But we are meeting up at the seminary. I might only see my former religious brothers and fathers there but the Servadoras go there a lot as well. I could use a few prayers today if you can spare them. It will be very weird stepping back into that world again as a lay person. I hope that unique experience isn't all that unique and I don't find it awkward as I think I am going to...