stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1344522315' post='2464996'] The logical response would be to arm and armor yourself to defend against potential threats. [/quote] Like I've said before I don't want to be involved in a gun fight. Bullets don't bounce off me. I am not necessarily quicker than my opponent. Maybe if I thought of myself as some "war hero" or Rambo or Dirty Harry character, maybe I'd love the opportunity to arm myself and maybe hope one day to encounter a bad guy so I can show the world how bad ass I can be. I probably thought like that in my adolescent youth. But then I grew up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344532095' post='2465057'] If someone were to steal my car, it would cause great harm to my family. I would be well within my rights to use force to stop the person. Trials are used to determine guilt after the fact. I wouldn't need to conduct a trial to determine the person in my vehicle was not me or someone to whom I had granted permission to use my vehicle. Is it okay for police to point guns at or shoot people in the act of stealing cars? Or are we [i]all [/i]morally obliged to stand around and weakly say "[size=1]hey, stop!" [/size]? [/quote] I don't believe in any moral obligation. But clearly Winchester is not beyond using deadly force to protect theft of a car. So my some of my concerns are validated. If you are worried about car theft then get your car insured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1344522315' post='2464996'] Nihilism where societal rules mean nothing and you can do what you want, or a society with guidelines (that have to follow some principles) that will enforce order to protect against some forms of aggression? [/quote] As beautiful and carefully constructed as your strawman is, I feel compelled to point out that moral nihilism is not anarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344539188' post='2465126'] I don't believe in any moral obligation. But clearly Winchester is not beyond using deadly force to protect theft of a car. So my some of my concerns are validated. If you are worried about car theft then get your car insured. [/quote] If you don't believe in moral obligations, then why in the floopy are you talking about this? My car is insured. Unless you're planning on stealing my poo, I really don't see why you're concerned. You also didn't clarify. Are the magical super police permitted to shoot car thieves, or are we really just supposed to let people steal stuff? Edited August 9, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344541950' post='2465157'] If you don't believe in moral obligations, then why in the floopy are you talking about this? My car is insured. Unless you're planning on stealing my poo, I really don't see why you're concerned. [/quote] Because people with guns are dangerous and life threatening, and strangely enough, I want to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344542075' post='2465161'] Because people with guns are dangerous and life threatening, and strangely enough, I want to live. [/quote] Then don't steal my stuff, don't attack me, and you don't have to worry. What about the police? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344542745' post='2465168'] Then don't steal my stuff, don't attack me, and you don't have to worry. What about the police? [/quote] What if I am within bullet range? What if you miss but hit me instead, what if your opponent misses but hits me instead? What if my daughter is going through a rebellious period and tries to steal your car, you shoot and kill her, then I am motivated to hunt you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344541950' post='2465157'] You also didn't clarify. Are the magical super police permitted to shoot car thieves, or are we really just supposed to let people steal stuff? [/quote] No, the people hired as police officers working for the democratically voted government (representing society) in order to make society safe, are not permitted to shoot unless there is imminent danger. Otherwise these police officers become a threat to society, thus they need to be trained in physical confrontations other than just how to point and shoot a gun. This puts their lives in grave danger, but that is part of this difficult job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 While this will no doubt have no effect on our little resident nihilist, who's proved utterly immune to facts and logic, here's some stats from the homicide rate data I linked to earlier. The following are estimated average homicides per 100,000 people by country: South Africa: 31.8 Mexico: 22.7 Brazil: 21.0 North Korea: 15.2 Russia: 10.2 Those countries all have stricter laws against guns than the US. US: 4.2 Switzerland: 0.7 Also, in the US, cities with the strictest anti-gun laws, such as Chicago, have among the highest murder rates, while there has been a proven negative correlation between number of people with concealed-carry licenses and crime (see Lott). In many rural areas where most people own a gun and know how to use it, crimes such as burglaries are practically non-existent. In any case, the whole premise that government restrictions on the right to own and bear arms lead to more safety and less murder and violence is completely shot (no pun intended) to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344490381' post='2464928'] Consistent with my philosophy of wanting me to survive. People with guns can kill me, I don't want that. Drunk people on roads can kill me, I don't want that either. I find it confusing that Catholics that don't want abortion, death penalty, or euthanasia, are highly enthused with have guns in people's hands. . . . [/quote] [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344542075' post='2465161'] Because people with guns are dangerous and life threatening, and strangely enough, I want to live. [/quote] Some folks hold to the wild and crazy notion that the law should be based on ethical principles, rather than Stevil's personal fears. People with chainsaws, crowbars, baseball bats, and butcher knives are dangerous and life threatening, as are people behind the wheels of trucks or operating heavy equipment. Therefore the government should ban all these things, or restrict them to government employees. But come to think of it, everyone who is ambulatory and with a functioning brain is potentially dangerous and life-threatening. The government should just lock everyone up in padded cells and keep them under tight surveillance to make sure nobody gets hurt. [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344538833' post='2465117'] Like I've said before I don't want to be involved in a gun fight. Bullets don't bounce off me. I am not necessarily quicker than my opponent. Maybe if I thought of myself as some "war hero" or Rambo or Dirty Harry character, maybe I'd love the opportunity to arm myself and maybe hope one day to encounter a bad guy so I can show the world how bad ass I can be. I probably thought like that in my adolescent youth. But then I grew up. [/quote] Criminologists estimate that firearms are used successfully against criminals over 2 million times a year, often without a shot fired. The deterrent effect of gun ownership is real and has been proven in numerous studies. There are very few deaths from law-abiding citizens "playing hero" to show how "bad-ass" they are. The truth is that guns actually "level the playing field" by giving the physically weaker a chance to defend themselves against the physically stronger. Otherwise many women and older people would be at the mercy of physically-stronger young thugs. As the saying goes: "God created all men. Sam Colt made them equal." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344547498' post='2465192'] What if I am within bullet range? What if you miss but hit me instead, what if your opponent misses but hits me instead? What if my daughter is going through a rebellious period and tries to steal your car, you shoot and kill her, then I am motivated to hunt you down. [/quote] Is there something special about when your beloved cops do this? What would you hunt me down with? You're such a flooping coward that you think women should be disarmed so that you're less at risk of taking a stray bullet. You think you'd suddenly grow a pair after such an event? I actually face the risk of being shot by homeowners while approaching homes at night for third party calls. I don't advocate making law abiding citizens helpless, in spite of that. Edited August 9, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344548901' post='2465196'] No, the people hired as police officers working for the democratically voted government (representing society) in order to make society safe, are not permitted to shoot unless there is imminent danger. Otherwise these police officers become a threat to society, thus they need to be trained in physical confrontations other than just how to point and shoot a gun. This puts their lives in grave danger, but that is part of this difficult job. [/quote] You clearly don't know many cops. So the answer is yes, we just have to let people steal stuff. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344556363' post='2465248']You're such a flooping coward that you think women should be disarmed so that you're less at risk of taking a stray bullet. [/quote] on topic, i [url="http://www.corneredcat.com/What_About_Rape/"]found this[/url], which i thought was pretty interesting: Generally speaking, deadly force is justified in response to an attempted forceful rape. Deadly force is justified in response to forceful rape [i]not[/i] because rape always involves death or grave bodily harm (although it too often does), but because there is a clearly-understood threat that the rapist will kill or seriously hurt his victim if she does not cooperate. The implied threat of death or serious injury for non-cooperation is present even if the rapist never says a single word to his victim, and its presence is part of what defines the crime of rape. Whenever an attacker uses deadly force against his intended victim, his intended victim may legally use deadly force in response. In the case of forceful rape, the force being used against the intended victim meets the legal definition of deadly force. So she may legally use deadly force to defend herself and prevent the rape. Please read the [url="http://www.corneredcat.com/Ability_Opportunity_Jeopardy"]A,O,J[/url] article for more discussion about the circumstances in which deadly force is, or is not, legally justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 12' is encounter distance. Good luck drawing and firing successfully before an attacker closes ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344557677' post='2465262'] 12' is encounter distance. Good luck drawing and firing successfully before an attacker closes ground. [/quote] thanks for that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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