Slappo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344423118' post='2464446'] I presume law goes for the lowest common denominator when it comes to keeping us safe. Surely Michael Schumacher is safe driving at excess of 200kms per hour, and yet there is a law which restricts driving speeds for all. [/quote] So drinking ages should be non existant because we should entirely outlaw alcohol. After all the lowest common denominator is that alcohol is misused by [b]some [/b]people of all ages. Cars are too, so are scissors, so I'm pretty sure they should be illegal. Ever see someone get stabbed with a pencil? It's definitely a powerful weapon in the wrong hands, so we should outlaw it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1343167666' post='2458527'] We'll make an Evil Conservative out of you yet, son. [/quote] You're doing God's work, Socrates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhuturePriest Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344438863' post='2464504'] So drinking ages should be non existant because we should entirely outlaw alcohol. After all the lowest common denominator is that alcohol is misused by [b]some [/b]people of all ages. Cars are too, so are scissors, so I'm pretty sure they should be illegal. Ever see someone get stabbed with a pencil? It's definitely a powerful weapon in the wrong hands, so we should outlaw it. [/quote] Let's not forget outlawing video games, Slappo. A near thunderously high 0.1% of video game players play so much that they get warped minds and shoot people. It's not a parenting problem, it's a video game problem, of course (For clarification I am not mocking you, I am mocking the idea that these things should be outlawed). I shoot guns quite frequently. Not once have I ever been tempted to shoot someone. Unfortunately, every time I want to shoot someone like my brother I never have a gun with me. It's funny how things turn out like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344418499' post='2464440'] Do you have any references to this? Willing to post a link to it? 11% seems bloody high. So does 2%. In my country our police don't carry guns, except at airports or SWAT who are called in especially in extreme circumstances. [/quote] looking into that one, it does seem like someone misplaced a few decimal points. [quote] I assume it is required that the police undergo training. What is required of CCWers? [/quote] not more that a couple days worth of marksman training to get started, and maybe a few hundred rounds and one or two range visits per year to qualify. Many people i know have exceeded the training level, and everyone i know into shooting regularily exceeds the practice level. CCW isnt the same in every state, but most require a marksmanship test(which could easily be a bit tighter) and a course on legalities, methods and ethics of CCW. Most people serious about it then take it upon themselves to learn and practice. quite similar really to how driving licenses work. a basic test, some knowledge requirements, and instruction, then you actually learn on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1344452198' post='2464604'] looking into that one, it does seem like someone misplaced a few decimal points. not more that a couple days worth of marksman training to get started, and maybe a few hundred rounds and one or two range visits per year to qualify. Many people i know have exceeded the training level, and everyone i know into shooting regularily exceeds the practice level. CCW isnt the same in every state, but most require a marksmanship test(which could easily be a bit tighter) and a course on legalities, methods and ethics of CCW. Most people serious about it then take it upon themselves to learn and practice. quite similar really to how driving licenses work. a basic test, some knowledge requirements, and instruction, then you actually learn on your own. [/quote] So, they know how to load, clean and shoot. Are they required to know the law, are they taught how to watch out for dangers of shooting beyond their target? Are they given self defense courses so they can disable a threat without having to use a gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344438863' post='2464504'] So drinking ages should be non existant because we should entirely outlaw alcohol. [/quote] I would strongly consider whether alcohol should be against the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344452956' post='2464607'] I would strongly consider whether alcohol should be against the law. [/quote]I am highly amused that the guy who wants the government to outlaw guns and consider outlawing alcohol is the same one that doesn't think the government should tell a mother not to kill her unborn child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344423118' post='2464446'] I presume law goes for the lowest common denominator when it comes to keeping us safe. Surely Michael Schumacher is safe driving at excess of 200kms per hour, and yet there is a law which restricts driving speeds for all. [/quote] I don't see how me getting arrested makes me safe. I don't see how turning my nonviolent act that harms no one into a crime makes me safe. My idea of safety is [i]not [/i]getting kidnapped by armed men and thrown in a flooping rape cage. Comparing driving 200 kps on streets with other vehicles not traveling 200 kms , with pedestrians, intersections and all the other poo someone with half a flooping brain would realize isn't on a racetrack with someone carrying a firearm is ridiculous. Further, unless one is in some truly unique situation, his life probably does not depend on driving 200kps. Edited August 8, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344452956' post='2464607'] I would strongly consider whether alcohol should be against the law. [/quote] They can have my Shiner Bock when they pry it from my cold dead hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344452956' post='2464607'] I would strongly consider whether alcohol should be against the law. [/quote] It's one thing not to believe in God, but this is just crazy talk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1344459214' post='2464661'] I am highly amused that the guy who wants the government to outlaw guns and consider outlawing alcohol is the same one that doesn't think the government should tell a mother not to kill her unborn child. [/quote] Consistent with my philosophy of wanting me to survive. People with guns can kill me, I don't want that. Drunk people on roads can kill me, I don't want that either. I find it confusing that Catholics that don't want abortion, death penalty, or euthanasia, are highly enthused with have guns in people's hands. One Catholic on this forum told me he would shoot a person if he caught them stealing his car. To me that is the death penalty (without a fair trial) for car theft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344452863' post='2464606'] So, they know how to load, clean and shoot. Are they required to know the law, are they taught how to watch out for dangers of shooting beyond their target? Are they given self defense courses so they can disable a threat without having to use a gun? [/quote] yes they are required to know the law, of course. And yes they go over dangers involved in shooting. And no, they arent given those other means of defense, that is on you to learn yourself. though if i had a gun on me, there is no way i would get into a hand to hand struggle on purpose, that makes it too difficult to defend yourself(if the guy has a knife you WILL die), and th possibility of losing your gun, etc. No, it would be either fight or flight. run if you can, defend youself if you have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344490381' post='2464928'] Consistent with my philosophy of wanting me to survive. People with guns can kill me, I don't want that. Drunk people on roads can kill me, I don't want that either. I find it confusing that Catholics that don't want abortion, death penalty, or euthanasia, are highly enthused with have guns in people's hands. One Catholic on this forum told me he would shoot a person if he caught them stealing his car. To me that is the death penalty (without a fair trial) for car theft. [/quote]That's the problem with thinking you are following a general philosophy vs understanding and trying to follow a general philosophy. Almost all Catholics here would point out that shooting someone for car theft would not be consistent with Catholic principles of holding life as important. Just as you recognize the conflict with principle when there is shallow understanding and inconsistent application with a Catholic thinking it's okay to shoot a car theief, others have been patiently trying to point out the logical conundrum purely selfish motives, or nihilistic (it doesn't matter) principles of self survival. If everyone were to adopt self survival as the principle, then that leaves the powerful having the ability and right to take from or dismiss the needs of the weaker. Humans live in a community, and requires principles/rules/guidelines to maintain order. You are against guns because you project they may be used against you. The logical response would be to arm and armor yourself to defend against potential threats. However, you are attempting to turn to societal rules that would outlaw guns to protect yourself from those who may be stronger and/or more willing to use force to get what they want. What is your choice? Nihilism where societal rules mean nothing and you can do what you want, or a society with guidelines (that have to follow some principles) that will enforce order to protect against some forms of aggression? Principles/values/rules of order are not neccessarily derived only from a Theist Philosophy. Theists will tell you they are, but logic and human reason will arrive at many of the same principles by observing human nature and behavior. Belief in Atheism doesn't require adoption of Nihilism, though Nihilism requires Atheism. Edited August 9, 2012 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 (edited) If someone were to steal my car, it would cause great harm to my family. I would be well within my rights to use force to stop the person. Trials are used to determine guilt after the fact. I wouldn't need to conduct a trial to determine the person in my vehicle was not me or someone to whom I had granted permission to use my vehicle. Is it okay for police to point guns at or shoot people in the act of stealing cars? Or are we [i]all [/i]morally obliged to stand around and weakly say "[size=1]hey, stop!" [/size]? Edited August 9, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344490381' post='2464928'] One Catholic on this forum told me he would shoot a person if he caught them stealing his car. To me that is the death penalty (without a fair trial) for car theft. [/quote] [img]http://i.qkme.me/eb6.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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