stevil Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1344296570' post='2463635'] But I suppose getting beaten or stabbed to death is ever so much better than getting shot. [/quote] I'd rather be beaten than shot. A bullet makes a hell of a lot more damage than a fist. I am more likely to survive a beating than a gun shot. It highlights the issue with these countries with lax gun control as their gun murders is a high proportion of all murders. For Canada, USA and Switzerland it is 35% and above of all murders. For countries with decent gun laws it is 12% and below. So a pretty decent country like Switzerland, with low total murder rates, (higher than Japan but just lower than NZ or UK), their murder rates would be much closer to that of Japan if they had decent gun laws which the statistics show would reduce gun related murder from 44% down to 12% or below, the net effect is that overall murder would be 0.9 rather than 1.3 which it is today. BTW Japan's overall murder rate is 0.62, with non gun related murder at 0.6 in comparison to Switzerland's non gun related murder rate of 0.74 Edited August 7, 2012 by stevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 if someone was tryng to kill you and you survived that just means they did it wrong not that they used an inferior weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1344371732' post='2464120'] if someone was tryng to kill you and you survived that just means they did it wrong not that they used an inferior weapon. [/quote] Not all killings are premeditated or intentional. A husband might come home to find his wife in bed with another person, in his rage pull out a gun and shoot them, rather than just punch them and storm off. A person might shoot a burgler rather than scare them off, or run away themselves. The silly notion of having a two way shoot-out in a pact movie theatre highlights that bystanders could be hit by friendly fire. Police are trained to worry about where the bullet might end up. Casual gun owners don't have to be trained at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [img]http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g470/GregoryIRice/DudeWalter.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344336077' post='2463946'] So if you had your choice of attacker, you would prefer they come at you with a gun rather than a box cutter? Myself, I struggle to outrun bullets, but I'd give myself a good chance of out running a person with a box cutter. Also, my skull, although impervious to box cutter blades, isn't bullet resistant unfortunately. [/quote] When someone attacks you with a box cutter they don't send you a warning email first. Thugs are usually cowards that attack when they surround, outnumber you or otherwise attack when you least expect it. I'm reasonably fit and strong for a 64year old, but I don't like my chances against a practiced young thug. You seem to have an emphasis on survival. Me, I don't like the idea of spending years in a wheel chair drooling from the mouth and struggling to hold my head up because some thug king hit me and I got brain damage when I hit the sidewalk. Maybe its not a good attitude for a Christian, but even surviving a moderate attack with PTSS for the rest of your life doesn't appeal. A recent spate of gangland shootings in Melbourne pretty much demonstrates prohibition of guns doesn't reduce murders. There was a case where a man was attacking a women and two men came to her aid. The guy pulled a gun and shot them. One survived one didn't. Yet we have had a very high incidence of young people dying from knife, bottle or king hit attacks. I don't think the choice of weapon alters your chances of survival as much as you think. A gun gives people a greater sense of power than a bottle or knife where they are inclined to be frightened and thus attack in a more frenzied way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344376093' post='2464143'] Police are trained to worry about where the bullet might end up. Casual gun owners don't have to be trained at all. [/quote] lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Stevil, you would think then that police men would win all the marksmanship competitions they enter then? They dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1344377999' post='2464168'] [img]http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g470/GregoryIRice/DudeWalter.jpg[/img] [/quote] I would trust in that man to win a shooting competition. Wouldn't trust him not to go psychotic and blow me away though. Darn that was a good film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1344383844' post='2464212'] Stevil, you would think then that police men would win all the marksmanship competitions they enter then? They dont. [/quote] It's not about shooting straight. It's about recognising that it is too dangerous to take a shot. Like in a crowded room, or if there are cars, streets or buildings behind your target. Also knowing that you can't just shoot someone in the back while they are running away. There was a Youtube clip recently of some old man, in a shop or bank or casino of something, a couple of people with guns came into the building to rob it. The old man started shooting at them, they were running away and he continued shooting, going all gung ho for quite a while. Normal civilians just aren't trained properly to deal with these conflicts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344390718' post='2464271'] It's not about shooting straight. It's about recognising that it is too dangerous to take a shot. Like in a crowded room, or if there are cars, streets or buildings behind your target. Also knowing that you can't just shoot someone in the back while they are running away. There was a Youtube clip recently of some old man, in a shop or bank or casino of something, a couple of people with guns came into the building to rob it. The old man started shooting at them, they were running away and he continued shooting, going all gung ho for quite a while. Normal civilians just aren't trained properly to deal with these conflicts. [/quote] That's amesome. But what's it got to do with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344390811' post='2464273'] That's amesome. But what's it got to do with me? [/quote] Not sure what you mean. Look, maybe you are highly trained and have experience and are capable under extreme life threatening situations, but there are many people whom are not. Put a gun in their hands and who knows what will happen? It is this "who knows" bit that I am worried about. I don't want to be caught in the middle of a gun fight because some "hero" with a gun decided to defend the bank rather than let them take the money and run. My life is worth more than the Insurance Excess that this "hero" potentially saves. I certainly don't want to be shot walking along the footpath due to two people on the other side of the road getting into an escalating dispute. If I see a person being mugged I might feel the urge to help, but if the crims have a high probability of possessing guns, I would rather walk on past out of harms way than to help out. Even if I owned a gun, I'd rather not get involved in a shoot out. If I am shooting at them, they will be motivated to shoot at me. "Who knows" who will win in a shoot out, my chances of survival might be 50/50 (and I am at a disadvantage because I would be worried about accidentally shooting the muggee) but if I walk away my chances of survival will be 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344390718' post='2464271'] It's not about shooting straight. It's about recognising that it is too dangerous to take a shot. Like in a crowded room, or if there are cars, streets or buildings behind your target. Also knowing that you can't just shoot someone in the back while they are running away. There was a Youtube clip recently of some old man, in a shop or bank or casino of something, a couple of people with guns came into the building to rob it. The old man started shooting at them, they were running away and he continued shooting, going all gung ho for quite a while. Normal civilians just aren't trained properly to deal with these conflicts. [/quote] then how come cops hit innocent people in about 11% of their self defense shootings compared to civilians at 2%? There is nothing about a badge that confers wisdom or knowledge on some one. I can bet you, a lot of CCWers spend more time training, running through scenarios and being aware of the gun on their hip than cops do. There is a reason why there arent very many stories of CCW people breaking the law or shooting innocents, because quite simply it is super rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1344398669' post='2464352'] then how come cops hit innocent people in about 11% of their self defense shootings compared to civilians at 2%? [/quote] Do you have any references to this? Willing to post a link to it? 11% seems bloody high. So does 2%. In my country our police don't carry guns, except at airports or SWAT who are called in especially in extreme circumstances. [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1344398669' post='2464352'] There is nothing about a badge that confers wisdom or knowledge on some one. [/quote] I assume it is required that the police undergo training. What is required of CCWers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344398373' post='2464347'] Not sure what you mean. Look, maybe you are highly trained and have experience and are capable under extreme life threatening situations, but there are many people whom are not. Put a gun in their hands and who knows what will happen? It is this "who knows" bit that I am worried about. I don't want to be caught in the middle of a gun fight because some "hero" with a gun decided to defend the bank rather than let them take the money and run. My life is worth more than the Insurance Excess that this "hero" potentially saves. I certainly don't want to be shot walking along the footpath due to two people on the other side of the road getting into an escalating dispute. If I see a person being mugged I might feel the urge to help, but if the crims have a high probability of possessing guns, I would rather walk on past out of harms way than to help out. Even if I owned a gun, I'd rather not get involved in a shoot out. If I am shooting at them, they will be motivated to shoot at me. "Who knows" who will win in a shoot out, my chances of survival might be 50/50 (and I am at a disadvantage because I would be worried about accidentally shooting the muggee) but if I walk away my chances of survival will be 100% [/quote] What I mean is, how do the actions of others justify taking action against me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344419166' post='2464443'] What I mean is, how do the actions of others justify taking action against me? [/quote] I presume law goes for the lowest common denominator when it comes to keeping us safe. Surely Michael Schumacher is safe driving at excess of 200kms per hour, and yet there is a law which restricts driving speeds for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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