ThePenciledOne Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1342563899' post='2456524'] As for dangerous, a lot more damage can be done from the voting booth than from bullets. . . . [/quote] On a major scale, indirectly yeah sure. [quote] beaver dam Enlightenment. [/quote] Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1342565265' post='2456534'] I'm sorry. I have read this three times but I can't find the part where you actually show me where the second Amendment says anything about individual self-defense. Again, you'll have to forgive me, I don't enjoy your right wing superpowers to magically know what the framers meant to say but forgot to add to the constitution. [/quote] No magical superpowers (right-wing or otherwise) are required. Just basic common sense logic, along with a basic study of history and the writings of the founding fathers (all of which are routinely neglected and disregarded by today's illiberal "liberals"). [b]"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." - John Adams "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington "The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." - Thomas Jefferson "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians." - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights) "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." - Noah Webster "A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace." - James Madison ("Father of the Constitution") "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms." - James Madison "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." - Richard Henry Lee "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry[/b] But who cares what they say? Obviously a bunch of right-wing kooks. A citizenry armed for national defense in the collective makes absolutely no sense if they have no right to use them for self-defense. Our founding fathers conceived of the militia of the several states (as opposed to a standing army, which most of them were opposed to or highly suspicious of) as a bulwark against tyranny both foreign and domestic. The state militias were to consist of all the citizenry capable of fighting - private citizens who owned their own weapons - and thus it would be hard for any government to tyrannize the people if they were all in possession of arms and capable of using them. This talk by the founders of armed citizens as a force against tyranny would make no sense if the founders regarded the people having a right to keep and bear arms as having no right to use them unless commanded to do so by their masters in Washington. Furthermore, the law recognizes a right to self defense independently of the second amendment. In fact, the right to self defense is a basic corollary of the right to life; the right to life includes the right to defend one's life against those who would try to take it. It would make no sense to say that the people have a right to defend their lives using their bare hands, baseball bats, or pitchforks, but not with the arms they have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear. But I don't know why I'm wasting time arguing the obvious. I suppose I just lack the left-wing superpower to magically believe blatantly incoherent nonsense. (As is the idea that people have the right to keep and bear arms, but not to use them in self defense). Edited July 18, 2012 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Stinking nationalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1342654190' post='2456892'] Stinking nationalist. [/quote] floopy YEAH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492[/url] America and their love of guns. "By their fruits they shall be known" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 1. I'm lazy. Someone explain to me what a poll-tax is 2. How much is gun registration fee? I would think the cost of the gun would be more of an impediment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1342812056' post='2457327'] [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492[/url] America and their love of guns. "By their fruits they shall be known" [/quote] I guess it was too much to hope that leftists would have waited until some of the dozen people murdered last night to be laid to rest before making it political. Sick. Edited July 20, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1342812056' post='2457327'] [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-18921492[/url] America and their love of guns. "By their fruits they shall be known" [/quote] Collectivist didgeridoo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 this" [color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Furthermore, the law recognizes a right to self defense independently of the second amendment. In fact, the right to self defense is a basic corollary of the right to life; the right to life includes the right to defend one's life against those who would try to take it.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]It would make no sense to say that the people have a right to defend their lives using their bare hands, baseball bats, or pitchforks, but not with the arms they have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear.[/font][/color] [color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] [/font][/color][color=#282828][font='Segoe UI', 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]But I don't know why I'm wasting time arguing the obvious. I suppose I just lack the left-wing superpower to magically believe blatantly incoherent nonsense. (As is the idea that people have the right to keep and bear arms, but not to use them in self defense). " [/font][/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 There are many countries with much more stringent fire arms laws and conditions than the USA. Many of those countries are much safer to live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1342650554' post='2456878'] No magical superpowers (right-wing or otherwise) are required. Just basic common sense logic, along with a basic study of history and the writings of the founding fathers (all of which are routinely neglected and disregarded by today's illiberal "liberals"). [b]"Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." - John Adams "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government." - George Washington "The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." - Thomas Jefferson "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." - George Mason "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians." - George Mason (father of the Bill of Rights and The Virginia Declaration of Rights) "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." - Noah Webster "A government resting on the minority is an aristocracy, not a Republic, and could not be safe with a numerical and physical force against it, without a standing army, an enslaved press and a disarmed populace." - James Madison ("Father of the Constitution") "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose leaders are afraid to trust them with arms." - James Madison "To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." - Richard Henry Lee "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves ... and include all men capable of bearing arms." - Richard Henry Lee "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." - Patrick Henry[/b] But who cares what they say? Obviously a bunch of right-wing kooks. A citizenry armed for national defense in the collective makes absolutely no sense if they have no right to use them for self-defense. Our founding fathers conceived of the militia of the several states (as opposed to a standing army, which most of them were opposed to or highly suspicious of) as a bulwark against tyranny both foreign and domestic. The state militias were to consist of all the citizenry capable of fighting - private citizens who owned their own weapons - and thus it would be hard for any government to tyrannize the people if they were all in possession of arms and capable of using them. This talk by the founders of armed citizens as a force against tyranny would make no sense if the founders regarded the people having a right to keep and bear arms as having no right to use them unless commanded to do so by their masters in Washington. [u][i][b]Furthermore, the law recognizes a right to self defense independently of the second amendment.[/b][/i][/u] In fact, the right to self defense is a basic corollary of the right to life; the right to life includes the right to defend one's life against those who would try to take it. It would make no sense to say that the people have a right to defend their lives using their bare hands, baseball bats, or pitchforks, but not with the arms they have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to keep and bear. But I don't know why I'm wasting time arguing the obvious. I suppose I just lack the left-wing superpower to magically believe blatantly incoherent nonsense. (As is the idea that people have the right to keep and bear arms, but not to use them in self defense). [/quote] Sometimes I wonder if you actually bother to read what I say before you respond. Looking at this I would say probably not. Edited July 21, 2012 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1342841871' post='2457445'] There are many countries with much more stringent fire arms laws and conditions than the USA. Many of those countries are much safer to live in. [/quote] And some of them are way way way way worse to live in. such as south africa, mexico, russia, and countless other tyrannical states that have basically banned civilian ownership of guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1342841871' post='2457445'] There are many countries with much more stringent fire arms laws and conditions than the USA. Many of those countries are much safer to live in. [/quote] I hear China is several times safer than the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1342876631' post='2457533'] I hear China is several times safer than the US. [/quote] As was Nazi Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1342842262' post='2457448'] Sometimes I wonder if you actually bother to read what I say before you respond. Looking at this I would say probably not. [/quote] In all fairness, you did make a statement about reading the framers minds. He then posted specific writing, which would indicate their thoughts. But I don't think any of those statements were in the constitution, last time I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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