Winchester Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1344559425' post='2465288'] thanks for that? [/quote] Draw early, and get a good combat expert as a witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344556363' post='2465248'] Is there something special about when your beloved cops do this? [/quote] Police in my country don't usually carry guns, they certainly don't shoot people for stealing cars. [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344556363' post='2465248'] What would you hunt me down with? You're such a flooping coward that you think women should be disarmed so that you're less at risk of taking a stray bullet. You think you'd suddenly grow a pair after such an event? [/quote] Is it cowardice to go out in public without a gun but brave to have one tucked up under your jacket? You are living proof that civilians are too reckless to have guns, you would shoot and potentially kill a person for stealing a car. I'm sure even USA would put you into prison for that. If you killed a loved one of mine, I would certainly pick up a gun and shoot you myself. It doesn't mean that I am brave, there is no brave hiding behind a gun. Vengeance would be my motive. See how this stuff escalates, next minute we have personal vendettas, then family feuds, then war. Guns do not make us safe, they introduce much unnecessary danger. I really don't know how you reconcile your stance with that of your beloved Jesus, was he of the opinion that people should kill each other over property? [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344556363' post='2465248'] I actually face the risk of being shot by homeowners while approaching homes at night for third party calls. I don't advocate making law abiding citizens helpless, in spite of that. [/quote] [url="http://abcnews.go.com/US/drunk-woman-wanders-colorado-couples-home-shot/story?id=16435998"]http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=16435998[/url] In my country, when a drunk girl accidentally comes into your house, you talk to her, warm her up, give her a coffee and try and find out how to get her home. It seems it takes a brave gun owner to get up and shoot whatever moves. Edited August 10, 2012 by stevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344592187' post='2465444'] Is it cowardice to go out in public without a gun but brave to have one tucked up under your jacket?[/quote] What is cowardly isn't you not carrying a gun, but your insistence that everyone else be forcibly disarmed by the government because of your fear of being shot. [quote]You are living proof that civilians are too reckless to have guns, you would shoot and potentially kill a person for stealing a car. I'm sure even USA would put you into prison for that. If you killed a loved one of mine, I would certainly pick up a gun and shoot you myself. It doesn't mean that I am brave, there is no brave hiding behind a gun. Vengeance would be my motive. See how this stuff escalates, next minute we have personal vendettas, then family feuds, then war. Guns do not make us safe, they introduce much unnecessary danger.[/quote] Whatever. If in your imaginary scenario, if instead of shooting your car-thieving daughter, Winchester, in his infinite vileness, had instead bashed out her brains with a crowbar, slit her throat with a knife, or throttled her to death with his bare hands, would that change the situation? It's illegal to murder by any means. The government outlawing guns does not magically end human violence, as evidenced by the homicide stats I gave earlier. Murder, violence, and vendetta precede the invention of firearms by many millenia. Nor does the government disarming citizens do squat to guarantee peace. After all (with apologies to Mr. Godwin), Hitler disarmed the private citizenry of his country. As the American founders realized, tyrants have always preferred unarmed subjects. But I've already wasted enough time trying to reason with nihilists. [img]http://i1103.photobucket.com/albums/g470/GregoryIRice/NIhilists2.jpg[/img] (It's well known nihilists don't like firearms, but prefer baseball bats, swords, and attack ferrets, though they are quite inept in the use of those weapons.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344592187' post='2465444'] Police in my country don't usually carry guns, they certainly don't shoot people for stealing cars. Is it cowardice to go out in public without a gun but brave to have one tucked up under your jacket? You are living proof that civilians are too reckless to have guns, you would shoot and potentially kill a person for stealing a car. I'm sure even USA would put you into prison for that. If you killed a loved one of mine, I would certainly pick up a gun and shoot you myself. It doesn't mean that I am brave, there is no brave hiding behind a gun. Vengeance would be my motive. See how this stuff escalates, next minute we have personal vendettas, then family feuds, then war. Guns do not make us safe, they introduce much unnecessary danger. I really don't know how you reconcile your stance with that of your beloved Jesus, was he of the opinion that people should kill each other over property? [url="http://abcnews.go.com/US/drunk-woman-wanders-colorado-couples-home-shot/story?id=16435998"]http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=16435998[/url] In my country, when a drunk girl accidentally comes into your house, you talk to her, warm her up, give her a coffee and try and find out how to get her home. It seems it takes a brave gun owner to get up and shoot whatever moves. [/quote] You have reading difficulty. It is cowardice to insist on the disarming of others (the initiation of violence) in the name of your safety. I've spend my life fighting bullies. I've drawn a weapon one time when I was outnumbered and had a friend's wife with me. You know exactly poo about how reckless I am. I would use deadly force to stop someone stealing my vehicle. That's morally permissible. The damage it would cause my family isn't acceptable, to me. What the government says I may do and not be punished is another matter, and that would also play a role in my decision. I'm not talking about being drunk and walking up to people's houses. I actually put myself in harm's way, and I still don't ask for people to be disarmed. I've been up against many drunks, and they all got out alive and unharmed. I've stopped people entering my property. They likewise walked away unharmed. Likewise, I've had family (who were unarmed in accord with the law) assaulted by armed men. Thanks to interventionist twits like you. Edited August 11, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Pop quiz - name the reference: "We forbade them weapons; they fashioned their own" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 When you can make a concealable 12 gauge shotgun for less than ten dollars worth of plumbing supplies, banning guns becomes a pretty stupid idea. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4&list=PL1D467AC16B50A59D&index=14&feature=plpp_video"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1wV3lmbSv4&list=PL1D467AC16B50A59D&index=14&feature=plpp_video[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1344650291' post='2465848'] Whatever. If in your imaginary scenario, if instead of shooting your car-thieving daughter, Winchester, in his infinite vileness, had instead bashed out her brains with a crowbar, slit her throat with a knife, or throttled her to death with his bare hands, would that change the situation? [/quote] Is that what you would do, if you didn't have a gun handy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344661439' post='2465922'] I would use deadly force to stop someone stealing my vehicle. That's morally permissible. The damage it would cause my family isn't acceptable, to me. [/quote] As you have stated that your car is insured, I take that to mean your insurance excess of $200-$500 is worth more than the life of the person you would rather kill. But in thinking about money, your bullet would need to go through the windshield that's $200 just there, then after it passes through the car thief's head it then goes into the car seat, $200 - $500 there. So you have lost your money anyway, but at least you have got to kill someone. If a police officer killed an unarmed car thief then that cop would lose his job and face criminal charges. If the victim was young and black and the cop was white there would be a riot, many more victims, possibly deaths. But I see your point, "you" think someone stealing your car gives you free license to kill them. I wonder if you extend your morality to the police force, do you want them to be able to shoot and kill unarmed thieves? Is there a limit to the price of the item being stolen or is it just open season on all thieves? Office stationary thieves, internet piracy, a child stealing a lollie from a candy store? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1344661439' post='2465922'] Likewise, I've had family (who were unarmed in accord with the law) assaulted by armed men. Thanks to interventionist twits like you. [/quote] So thankfully a gun fight was avoided and they hence got to live to tell about their scary encounter.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344754230' post='2466427'] So thankfully a gun fight was avoided and they hence got to live to tell about their scary encounter.. [/quote] It was rape. Thankfully nothing, arse portal. Edited August 12, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344754039' post='2466426'] As you have stated that your car is insured, I take that to mean your insurance excess of $200-$500 is worth more than the life of the person you would rather kill. But in thinking about money, your bullet would need to go through the windshield that's $200 just there, then after it passes through the car thief's head it then goes into the car seat, $200 - $500 there. So you have lost your money anyway, but at least you have got to kill someone. If a police officer killed an unarmed car thief then that cop would lose his job and face criminal charges. If the victim was young and black and the cop was white there would be a riot, many more victims, possibly deaths. But I see your point, "you" think someone stealing your car gives you free license to kill them. I wonder if you extend your morality to the police force, do you want them to be able to shoot and kill unarmed thieves?[s] Is there a limit to the price of the item being stolen or is it just open season on all thieves? Office stationary thieves, internet piracy, a child stealing a lollie from a candy store[/s]? [/quote] No, it gives me the right to use deadly force. That's not the same thing. Why would I be limited to shooting through a windshield? Have you considered the items in the vehicle? What do I carry in my vehicle, psychic serf? I took out your extreme scenarios. Try to focus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 This just happened last night: [url="http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/14432890-418/off-duty-chicago-cop-fatally-shoots-man-in-maywood.html"]http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/14432890-418/off-duty-chicago-cop-fatally-shoots-man-in-maywood.html[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) as it seems like this thread as gone on and on in circles, with no forward movement, it's getting time to close the thread. i'll let winchester and stevil wrap up with closing arguments (and whomever else wants to jump in), then it's getting closed tonight, scheduled at 10p.m. Edited August 12, 2012 by Lil Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Thanks Lil Red, Good timing, Winchester seems to be getting quite worked up. Making guns available to all, without restriction, means many people have access to easily concealed guns, potentially rapid fire, specifically designed to kill people. Not only do the peaceful civilians get guns but also the petty criminals too. Conflicts are much more likely to turn deadly, people get emotional and struggle to control their rage, even in discussion as benign as debating gun control law. Police operate under many restrictions with much training of law, and non lethal combat techniques, they are experience in confrontation and combat, and even armed police still offer much threat to society. When you have civilians with guns, some may be frightened at noised in the night (it is likely their fear motivated them to purchase guns), they shoot first and ask questions later. Some deem it "morally" acceptable to kill people for car theft, I am not sure where the boundaries exist but it seems it is in the eye of the gun owner then the law will come along and clean up the mess. Without a gun, a car gets stolen, the owner gets a replacement car due to insurance, maybe at some point the thief gets caught, maybe not. It is a lifestyle that will no doubt lead them to trouble eventually. With a gun, the gun owner plays judge, jury and executioner, then the law throws the gun owner into prison. However in a gun fight there are no guarantees, the thief could just as easily shoot back. A grieving parent may take revenge on a gun owner. Thus the gun owner may also die, all this to save a car which means Insurance Excess. If a person wants to shoot a gun they generally go to a gun range or go bush, why, to ensure there are no people around that could accidentally get shot. Firing a gun in a crowded city/town is highly dangerous, and must be an absolute last resort, only if lives are imminently in threat, not to save a car being stolen. When car thieves are likely to face civilians with guns, those car thieves then arm themselves as well. Death rates, especially by gun goes up well out of proportion to crime rates for that society. This is evident in USA, Canada and Switzerland. Yeah, a gun, in the right situation can save a person from a mugging or a rape, but likely the criminals already have the upper hand, you reach for your gun and you end up shot and dead. Most muggings, do not result in rape, most rape is date rape, where guns would not not help. Many countries with good gun control manage to function safely, people are not scared of being shot, even criminals most of the time don't carry guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1344800657' post='2466537'] Making guns available to all, without restriction, means many people have access to easily concealed guns, potentially rapid fire, specifically designed to kill people. Not only do the peaceful civilians get guns but also the petty criminals too. [/quote] I think this is an appropriate time to post this classic: [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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