Modesty: A Discussion About Men

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

What is modesty? It seems to be an off shoot of the word moderation. Is modesty truely about looks,or is that only part of it?

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1342780216' post='2457252']
What is modesty? It seems to be an off shoot of the word moderation. Is modesty truely about looks,or is that only part of it?
[/quote]
Looks is only part of it. The whole rest of it is what I'm trying to understand in this thread.

[Tally Marx]

(I think while I type and my backspace button is broken. You have been warned.)

Ido not think that immodest things are easy to define, because what is or isnt modest is largely relative.
Immodesty has to do with the intent of the acting person, the reaction of the viewing person, and both together.
It is often complicated by context, culture, and conditioning.

I would personally say that a good rule of thumb for the acting person is this:
If you are trying to arouse others, don't do it.
If you have reasonable expectations (based on direct knowledge of the viewer, a knowledge of their culture and conditioning, or affecting context) that they are going to be aroused, don't do it.

I think that modesty would be a positive intent and a positive reaction. Or maybe a reaction and intent that is neither positive nor negative. Can my jeans be modest if I don't think about the viewer when I put them on, and if no one thinks about me in any particular way when they see me in them?

Am I even making sense?

[Amppax]

[quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1342712340' post='2457014']
Well, this was one:

(Warning ponies dancing immodestly)
[spoiler][img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120531213253/villains/images/a/aa/50439_-_animated_dancing_gif_spike.gif[/img][/spoiler]
[/quote]

That's a dragon.

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1342835974' post='2457416']
That's a dragon.
[/quote]
In that case maybe you'd be interested in this show about dragons:
[spoiler][img]http://image.spreadshirt.com/image-server/image/composition/19632755/view/1/producttypecolor/1/type/png/width/280/height/280/mane-6-spike_design.png[/img][/spoiler]

[MissyP89]

Brian, why does [i]everything[/i] you do turn into a discussion on ponies?

[cmotherofpirl]

This is actually a good topic and if you lame it up, I [i][b]will[/b][/i] go all modly on you.

[TheresaThoma]

Personally I think modesty has to be about the intent and knowing your relationship with the other person. An example I can think of is how you hug/touch someone. I was having a really bad day and was completely stressed out so I ended up almost melting down at about midnight while working on a group project. A good guy friend suggested we take a walk together to calm me down. He kept his arms around me the whole time we were walking and talking but it didn't feel immodest at all. We both knew it he was there comforting me as a friend. So yes that kind of close touch could become immodest but because of the intent and our relationship as good friends it kept it modest.
So it is a package deal, how you present yourself and how you act. You have to be aware of your relationships with others and respect how your actions may affect them. This extends to the general public too, knowing how much of yourself to "hold back" when you first meet someone is an amazing help. Think boundaries not barriers though. I really respect guys that slowly let you get to know them you realize as they share more and more it is because they trust you (and maybe even like you!). But if everything they have ever done is out there for the world to see, yuck.
So overall I guess what I am trying to say is modesty comes from respect, for yourself, for others and for your relationships. I think most of us have touched on the point that we don't feel respected when someone acts immodestly towards us.
Just my two cents.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1342793826' post='2457268']
Looks is only part of it. The whole rest of it is what I'm trying to understand in this thread.
[/quote]

Good, me to than.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='TheresaThoma' timestamp='1342855170' post='2457499']
So it is a package deal, how you present yourself and how you act. You have to be aware of your relationships with others and respect how your actions may affect them. This extends to the general public too, knowing how much of yourself to "hold back" when you first meet someone is an amazing help. Think boundaries not barriers though. I really respect guys that slowly let you get to know them you realize as they share more and more it is because they trust you (and maybe even like you!). But if everything they have ever done is out there for the world to see, yuck.

[/quote]

I have a seriouse problem with wearing my heart on my sleeve at any cost, a desperation to be understood instead of understand possibly i have. If what i have quoted is part of true modesty, what you have said sounds well enough to me. I acually i read something like what you have said in ecclesiasticus recently.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[PapistWyf]

First of all, sorry I did not read all the replies. Kids are napping and I only have so much time, but I read the OP and thought it was a good topic of discussion.

As it happens, I actually went to a talk by a priest that was about modesty, but not as it pertains to the 6th and 9th commandments. He was speaking about modesty of speech, thought and action. He was speaking to a women's group, but what he said applies to all people. So to respond to part of the OP about modesty of speech and action - absolutely, we can and should consider modesty in these areas, as well as in our thoughts. But to sum it up, "modesty" is to be moderate or appropriate. And often times, if one is being modest, it means that they will go unnoticed b/c they aren't doing/saying anything that is in anyway extreme. For example, the priest said, if you were to show up at your friend's house for dinner wearing an evening gown and $5000 worth of jewelry, that would be immodest b/c it's not appropriate for the occasion. Similarly, if you went to meet the president or queen wearing your gardening clothes, that would be immodest b/c it's not appropriate for the occassion and you would also be calling attention to yourself in either example.

I think with speech, we can consider modesty in terms of not saying outrageous things, trying to get attention, etc. It is closely related to humility, I think. (Which some PPs might have said.)

I think men should be modest in their dress as well and dress decently. In my own journey to more deeply understand modesty, particularly in terms of the way people dress, I've come to see how much pride and vanity drove my clothing choices. Even if one is still sufficiently covered to not be an occasion or near occasion of sin for someone else in the sexual sense, we must seek to have purity of intention. So I think this applies to men just as much as women. Even if women don't get "turned on" by seeing a man immodestly dressed as men do for women (speaking generally, of course), if a guy wears a shirt b/c he wants to show of his muscles (whether he is thinking of impressing his friends or impressing girls, it doesn't matter). Or he wants people to think he is a snazzy dresser, or notice what brand his clothing is, etc... all of these intentions are not pure. By the same toketn, I think women can lead other women to sin in their thoughts by dressing immodestly for those reasons too. E.g. one woman might look at another who is immodestly dressed and either feel jealous of her or critical of her imperfections. ("I wish I could look as good in pan.ts like that" or "Doesn't she know her cellulite is showing??" kind of thoughts.)

Something that I have become more sensitive too as well is how incredibly casual our culture is... I think when we are TOO casual, even if your body is "covered up" it is immodest. I am thinking, for example, of how people will wear their pajamas or exercise clothes out in public to the store, or school, or even church. The appropriate context for pajamas is one's bedroom. The appropriate context for workout clothes is the gym. I think when we "dress up" just a little bit... for guys maybe this means wearing a polo shirt instead of a t-shirt, or khaki's instead of jeans, or pan.ts instead of shorts... this conveys a greater sense of dignity, both for the person who is wearing the clothes ("I recognize my own dignity enough to care about my appearance" - in a healthy way) and also for the people who he may encounter ("I care enough about you to dress decently in front of you.") Whereas someone who goes out in their pajamas (extenuating circumstances notwithstanding), I feel like that conveys "I don't give a rat's about what I look like and I don't give a rat's what you think about it." I don't think that type of thinking is virtuous.

So I guess, for men, when it comes to dressing (and this really applies to women too), we should NOT dress in hopes that others will think more highly of us (vanity) or for the sake of showing off our making ourselves feel proud about who we are and what we look like (pride.)

In terms of "coverage," think the same standards should be applied to both men and women: wear clothing that is at or below the knee, keep midriffs, backs, shoulders and chest covered. (at the absolute minimum!)

ok, baby awake. ciao!

Edited July 23, 2012 by PapistWyf

[brianthephysicist]

Lots of good stuff here, thank you. I think what struck me the most was the idea of modesty being moderate or appropriate. Lots more to think about again

[brianthephysicist]

Wow I'm getting all these glimmers of how pride is so wrapped up in all of this. Earlier it was mentioned the connection between modest speech & speaking modestly and now this idea of modesty being moderate or appropriate, kind of an opposite to the ideas of pride and vanity. Makes me think of the litany of humility and of St John the Baptist: that sense of decreasing in the eyes of the world so that others (namely Christ) may increase. People are looking for His love, I need to get out of the way.