God's Love Different (sorry If This Has Been Asked Before)

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343177201' post='2458592']
I spent in total, a paltry 6weeks in East Timor. Fr. Robert McCullogh has spent most of his life in Pakistan. Does God love him more than me? Would I have not done the same as Fr. if given his talents and opportunities? God gives to each of us challenges based on those gifts that he gives to each of us. Some are great some are small. .[i].I will not let your burdens become one ounce too great for your strength[/i].. It seems illogical to give a person more talents and opportunities than another and love them more because of it.
[/quote]

What [i]seems[/i] illogical for us may not be so, when looking at the situation from an omnipotent point of view.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343177201' post='2458592']
Maybe we're on a different bus.
[/quote]

I'm thinking so.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343177201' post='2458592']
But with humans it is taught that we are all equal in the eyes of God.

[/quote]

I've always wondered [i]where[/i] that's taught. I believe the Catechism says we are [i]created[/i] equal, but that doesn't mean that we stay that way.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1343232565' post='2458765']
schadenfreude

and gesundeit

I'm not that emotionally distraught over it, as it might have seemed. I just don't like what I'm hearing[/quote]

I wouldn't have thought you distraught but only that your feelings were a factor.

[quote]As to the husband and wife thing, I guess we should just agree to disagree.[/quote]

With respect I do not agree to disagree, because with respect, your stance is incorrect.

[quote]There's cultural things that surround marriage that we are conditioned to and even tho they may or may not be moral absolutes that doesn't mean violating these social mores don't do damage. This idea of romanticism and emotional exclusivity may have been born from Christendom but AFAIK not all Christian cultures do or have approached marriage with this romantic-emotional lens. So yes, a husband saying "I love you differently but the same amount as I love other women" would most likely cause harm because it would imply the couple's emotional exclusivity was somehow violated, and that's an important facet of marriage in the current era we live in. That doesn't make it an intrinsically bad concept.

And yes even after erotic love has passed, the two would still be one flesh, it would still be a different type of love of an entirely different variety than he/she would love anyone else. What does "loving your wife MORE than any other woman (or man?)" mean anyway?
[/quote]

I don't see how that is any evidence that a man does not love his wife more than any other woman. True there are different types of love, love for neighbor, love for friends, and love for family for example. But that does not mean a man does not love his wife more.

Take for example a man who loves three women. One woman is simply an acquaintance, but he has for her the love of a neighbor, that's love. One woman is his friend, not only does he have for her the love of a neighbor but also the love of a friend, that's love + love. The last woman is his wife, not only does he have the love of neighbor for her and the love of a friend, he also has the love of family or the love one has for one's wife, that's love + love + love.

The amount of love he has for these women can also measured by sorrow. The man should mourn the lost of his acquaintance, but he would mourn the lost of his friend more than his acquaintance, because he loves his friend more. And most certainly he would mourn the lost of his wife more than his friend and acquaintance, because he loves her more than his friend and acquaintance.

[quote]And in one way you kinda make my point how shiitake mushroom it would feel for someone to say "I don't love you as much as x."[/quote]

I don't agree with that statement. It seems that perhaps you wish to only see a negative that doesn't actually exist. God loves each person perfectly even though no person deserves His love at all. We should be content with the infinite love of God which He gives us. Because that love is infinite, even if He should have a greater infinite love for another. If after knowing God loves us infinitely it upsets us that He may show greater love to another that could be, could be entering dangerous territory, we should be careful because it may be something like jealously or envy. Not that you are guilty of any such thing but only that it is important to bring up, in regard to the question of people feeling bad that God would show greater love to another. In any event wether or not it would hurt someone's feelings does not effect wether or not it is true.

[quote]
But that's really I all I have to say on THAT topic. Maybe I shouldn't ever get married cause I no no what I talk about. [/quote]

I would seriously still like to know your thoughts of post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122426-gods-love-different-sorry-if-this-has-been-asked-before/page__st__80#entry2458388"]#96[/url]

[quote]I pray about it. I'll let y'all know when the heavens open up and the answer dawns on me. I'm in the beginning stages of becoming a level 5 mystic so like . . . in 4 . . . 5 weeks tops, I'll have this whole shebang figured out.
[/quote]

Hahaha ok, good luck on leveling up!

Edited July 25, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343240250' post='2458785']
I've always wondered [i]where[/i] that's taught. I believe the Catechism says we are [i]created[/i] equal, but that doesn't mean that we stay that way.
[/quote]
Good point. I don't know either. But if we accept that God made all of us equal then how can one become more equal than another except by the grace of God? So then God gives Fr Robert an amesome life of bringing Pakistanis to Christianity under threat of sudden death and to me he gives the task of mowing the Church grounds and a life of relative comfort. It would seem a bit lame for God to then love Fr. more than me when the things he loves about Fr. are what he gave him. That would be a kind of circular love of himself.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343182307' post='2458620']

Cold is the absence of heat in like manner evil is the absence of good.[u] If Satan were completely evil he would cease to exist.[/u] The good that remains is only because he is a creature of God.
[/quote]
Huh? I thought you were an advocate of God doesn't or can't destroy what he created. The underlined would be a paradoxical situation. And where do we get or how do we conclude the possibility that satan has some good? satan wishes to destroy our relationship with God which would 'hurt?' God to the max. When you hurt infinite love to the max, do you have any good left? Would satan then treat us in some benevolent way? Can you quote some scripture that is not some theologans personal opinion where this theory that satan has some good or cannot be uncreated. ie. do we throw out the English translation Bibles as being incorrectly translated in their implication that satan, hades and death are destroyed in the end times?



[quote]What?[/quote]
Not sure which you are going for. Eventual purification and salvation in hell which would be a deeper form of Purgatory. Or eternal suffering to save from non existence!!! Illogical captain how can eternal suffering be better than non existence. At times when I've been suffering, sleep (pseudo non existence) is much better than conscious suffering. Thanks! but if I don't make it to heaven, I want non existence please, and if God is truly love he would grant that wish to any who asks it who have no hope of salvation.



[quote]Word to Big Bird.[/quote]
Favour and love are not the same thing by a long shot. As in the example of a well behaved child and misbehaved child. The parent may favour the well behaved and boast about it, while being anxious over the others failings, but this does not mean that the parent loves the misbehaved one less.



[quote]Indeed He does love sinners. He especially loves sinners who repent.[/quote]
And he loves sinners who don't repent, giving them every possible opportunity even up to the point of death. The good thief taught this. And when asked why he spent time with sinners, Jesus said the sick are more in need of the physician.


[quote]Again I beg to differ. We do not deserve the love of God, we do not deserve any gift of God. It is important to remember that. It is also important to understand that He loves some creatures, like Mary, more than others. But again, an infinite is still a infinite even if there are greater infinities. God has prefect love for all and that love is infinite even though He shows and has greater love for others which is infinite.[/quote]
We don't need to deserve Gods love because he gives it anyway, unconditionally. If his love were based on deserve we wouldn't have it and it wouldn't be perfect if there were conditions anyhoo. It would be like me saying to my wife I will love you more if you buy me things. This is a faulty love with a propensity to failure.

Anyway we're starting to repeat arguments so I suppose we leave it to the jury.

[Mark of the Cross]

If God does love some more than others, I pray that he loves you all more than me!

[KnightofChrist]

Why God loves the Devil, why there is 'good' in the devil, how God loves and how its is different than our way of loving. All in just over 2 mins...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGUaM0gZLGk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343247915' post='2458814']
I wouldn't have thought you distraught but only that your feelings were a factor.
[/quote]

atm I'm rather emotionally detached from the discussion. Other moments I might be, but not at this point in time.

[quote]With respect I do not agree to disagree, because with respect, your stance is incorrect.[/quote]

ok


[quote]I don't see how that is any evidence that a man does not love his wife more than any other woman.[/quote]

It wasn't meant to be evidence.

[quote]
True there are different types of love, love for neighbor, love for friends, and love for family for example. But that does not mean a man does not love his wife more.
[/quote]

Right

[quote]The amount of love he has for these women can also measured by sorrow.[/quote]
So far that's the only concrete measuring stick you have to measure love. And sorrow is an emotion no? Love is not an emotion (I'm sure no one gets the warm fuzzies when thinking about their enemies, but that doesn't mean love is absent).

And how does this correlates to the love of God? Does it hurt God more/less when I separate myself from Him? Does the sacred heart of Christ hurt more/less? And maybe does God give more/less grace to people based on how sad face he would be to see soul x condemned to hell? That seems kinda not right.

[quote]It seems that perhaps you wish to only see a negative that doesn't actually exist.[/quote]

If I wanted to see a negative, I would have just said "well that smells of elderberries" and moved on. But I can't just change how I think and feel and how I reconcile my conceptions of God with certain things in 3.5 seconds. Sue me

[quote]In any event wether or not it would hurt someone's feelings does not effect wether or not it is true.[/quote]

No WAY? R u srs? [non-beeshy light-hearted sarcasm 'cause srsly I know this and the comment iz not all that helpful]

[quote]
I would seriously still like to know your thoughts of post [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122426-gods-love-different-sorry-if-this-has-been-asked-before/page__st__80#entry2458388"]#96[/url][/quote]

Nothing really that I haven't already said. It doesn't really address the questions I'm trying to get at, other than a possible quantifier for God's love i.e. the graces He bestows upon a person. It doesn't address why He might do this. Maybe it's an answer that is unascertainable (spell check tells me this is not a real word) in this life, but I'm still curious.


I'm not discontented with how God loves me/others. I'm just curious as to how/if this love is quantified and more importantly if and WHY He doles out His love in different quantities. Just curiosity really.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1343269355' post='2458904']
Nothing really that I haven't already said. It doesn't really address the questions I'm trying to get at, other than a possible quantifier for God's love i.e. the graces He bestows upon a person. It doesn't address why He might do this. Maybe it's an answer that is unascertainable (spell check tells me this is not a real word) in this life, but I'm still curious.[/quote]

You've not really address it imho however. The points about Mary and the special graces / love she received and receives from God do go directly to the main question "Does God love some more than others?" I would like you and Mark to give a direct answer to those points. It's perfectly fine if you and he do not wish to give a direct response. But if that is the case however we'll have to end things here. I've done my very best to address the large majority of both you and his questions and concerns directly. I would like to be shown the same courtesy in this regard. Instead of just having more questions asked of me when I answer others, whilst mine go unanswered or indirectly answered.

I will answer one question though. Why does God love some more than others? Because He wills it, why He does we do not know because we do not know the mind of God. That answer you prolly don't like, not sure I like it either from a human stand point, but that is the answer to a lot of the things God does and why. But I'll ask Him when I die and I'll try to let you know.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343240250' post='2458785']
I've always wondered [i]where[/i] that's taught. I believe the Catechism says we are [i]created[/i] equal, but that doesn't mean that we stay that way.
[/quote]

I hear you on that point, that we don't all stay that way. Sin kinda cracks the man of clay and the love can leak out rapidly and sometimes slowly depending on the crack. But cracks can be repaired if we allow GOD to illuminate where the crack is and ask him to repair it. Though it can be and feelings are part of the redemtive mission, love is more than a feeling, if we feel bad sometimes it doesn't nescisarily mean we are bad and void of the love of GOD,there are fruits in desolation and consolation and all that is inbetween these. (just thought i would add that.)

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343258782' post='2458862']
Good point. I don't know either. But if we accept that God made all of us equal then how can one become more equal than another except by the grace of God? So then God gives Fr Robert an amesome life of bringing Pakistanis to Christianity under threat of sudden death and to me he gives the task of mowing the Church grounds and a life of relative comfort. It would seem a bit lame for God to then love Fr. more than me when the things he loves about Fr. are what he gave him. That would be a kind of circular love of himself.

We don't need to deserve Gods love because he gives it anyway, unconditionally. If his love were based on deserve we wouldn't have it and it wouldn't be perfect if there were conditions anyhoo. It would be like me saying to my wife I will love you more if you buy me things. This is a faulty love with a propensity to failure.

[/quote]

p1: All goodness, all love, comes from God. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the [i]greater[/i], or more [i]glorious[/i] works are the ones that God will use to love some people more than others. Nay - if God does love some more than others (which I lean toward simply because it's in the summa), it will be not by their own works, but by how readily and unselfishly they accepted the task laid before them. Not by the task itself. Your argument may still stand, but by changing the example to say: "He gives more grace to the one to perform his act more selflessly than to the other." To that I say: God is God. WE can't possibly understand Him in this life, or even in the next. We can't judge what God might or mightn't do by our standards. So, arguing against Aquinas by saying, basically, "that seems lame," or "that doesn't seem right," is a moot point.

p2. I disagree with the statement that God gives us His love unconditionally. I think the single condition is that we have to accept it. If we honestly don't want to go to Heaven when we die, God will not force us.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343258849' post='2458863']
If God does love some more than others, I pray that he loves you all more than me!
[/quote]

Well, that's still not saying much...

But if He loves any of you [i]half[/i] as much as He loves me, you're in pretty good shape!

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343329079' post='2459079']
it will be not by their own works, but by how readily and unselfishly they accepted the task laid before them. Not by the task itself. Your argument may still stand, but by changing the example to say: "He gives more grace to the one to perform his act more selflessly than to the other." To that I say: God is God.
[/quote]
The thought that comes to my mind is. What about a child that sits in a wheel chair drooling and can hardly hold it's head up and has an epileptic fit every now and again. That child has no control whatsoever over selfish or selflessness. Is Gods love for that child diminished in some way?[i] Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.[/i] I don't think children are developed sufficiently to appreciate selflessness fully.

[quote]p2. I disagree with the statement that God gives us His love unconditionally. I think the single condition is that we have to accept it.
[/quote]
This appears to be saying that God does not love atheists. I have been on the RCIA team for a number of years and have never brought anyone to faith. It is our belief that it is Gods call that people are answering. We've had the odd one or two drop outs, so not everyone accepts. If God did not love them why did he invite them? If he knew they were not going to follow through then why invite them?


[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343265585' post='2458889']
Why God loves the Devil, why there is 'good' in the devil, how God loves and how its is different than our way of loving. All in just over 2 mins...
[/quote]
That seems a little like saying to a starving person "Here's a rice sack. It's empty but it's still a container for rice."

If everything God created is good, then how come we failed and brought down the whole show? There's something that is not good or we would have been created immediately for heaven. The only explanation I can think of is that for love to be perfect it has to be given freely by free choice. Not by threat of punishment or promise of reward. God had to let go of the reins so to speak and see what we would do. To have a level playing field for free choice, God had to create his opposite ie the devil and give him power on earth. In other words the devil may be merely a tool, a negative force to accomplish an outcome. God is omnipresent and Jesus is the light of the world, but the devil shades the light to let the dark/nothing to be. As others have said evil is the absence of good so the devil is the absence of God.
This of course is pure speculation on my part, but so is the notion that the devil has good! We cannot know the nature of the devil. Does the devil have a soul? Is it self aware? Saying the devil is good because God created it, is only in the sense that it is what God used that we may love him perfectly by choice. But after the task is accomplished does the devil have any purpose?

PS I'd still like someone to explain Matthew 10:28 re God can't/doesn't uncreate.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[fides' Jack]

God understands circumstances, but some circumstances are in our control.

Find me an atheist who doesn't have a single miniscule shred of doubt, and your argument applies. Interestingly enough, only God could tell who those people are.

As humans, we can't do anything perfectly. We can't accept God's love perfectly, and we can't reject Him perfectly, either.

Edit: I want to add - if God knew that Adam and Eve would fall, why test them? It is due to God's love that we each have our chances to choose Him.

Another edit: I really don't think anyone here is saying that there is a single person whom God doesn't love at all. But you seem to be implying that some are saying that.

Edited July 27, 2012 by fides' Jack

[Amory]

It's pretty clear that the Virgin Mary, St. John the Baptist, and St. Peter were more beloved by God than I am.

[Amory]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1342898262' post='2457613']
Being a doctor of the Church doesn't make him infallible. It makes him really really smart. It makes him smarter than the rest of us. It certainly makes him smarter than me.



But not infallible
[/quote]

It's not a very compelling response for someone simply to assert, "He (or she) wasn't infallible," whenever he disagrees with a Doctor of the Church. Especially with the intellectuals and academics such as Aquinas who backed their arguments up with extensive arguments, one really needs to respond to the Doctor's reasoning, pointing out why its mistaken.

[Amory]

Anyway, the idea that God loves everybody equally seems to be based more in some misguided (post-)Enlightenment egalitarianism than in any authentically Catholic line of thought from Scripture, the Fathers, the Doctors of the Church, etc.