God's Love Different (sorry If This Has Been Asked Before)

[Jaime]

[quote]God loves everyone with an infinite love; but God is also completely free. He makes choices, as do we[/quote]


That's Anomaly's point if I'm not mistaken

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1342934639' post='2457836']



That's Anomaly's point if I'm not mistaken
[/quote]

His point seemed to be a rejection of the idea that God could love some more than others and if He does He is a apricious god toying with ants and a magnifying glass.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1342935625' post='2457840']
His point seemed to be a rejection of the idea that God could love some more than others and if He does He is a apricious god toying with ants and a magnifying glass.
[/quote]My point does not refute the idea that "God" apparently loves people inequally although "God" is an omnipotent being and creater of All past present and future with full knowledge and awareness of every persons inner thoughts, actions, and intents for every instance of existend past, present, and future. This religious/theological concept of an infinitely aware and infinitely loving God that chooses to allow individuals to have tortured and agonizing experiences here on earth because God chooses to love them less and then this God reserves the right to issue 'justice' in some vague afterlife according to "His" standards as expressed by "His" will incarnated in this realm of existence, "the Church"?

My point is this concept of God is illogical, unreasonable, cannot be explained or justified with weak claims of "it's a mystery" or another "theological conundrum".

I'm guessing Ice_nine's original intent and posts was trying to rectify this concept (and possibly fearing her conclusions) of this idea that God may not love her as much as one of the beautiful, healthy, well adjusted, happy, untroubled persons. Yes, we all know people who have worse things to deal with than we have, but we also know people who are much better off than we are.

Does it really bring us peace to conclude "God loves me because he gave me two eyes that work and I can walk, while that kid in the neighborhood has Cerebral Palsy and can't walk to the mail box without drooling and falling down"? That ineveitable leads to the question, what did I do to deserve this better situation? But it's the other side of that coin that asks, what did I do to deserve this torment of sexual attraction to people of the same sex, inability to be comfortable talking to someone, burning craving for drugs or alcohol, limited ability to do school work to get grades to attend college and get a good job to attend college and support a family, or -- why was I born in Somolia where even those worries would be unimagionable blessing?

If these circumstances of birth and situation are known, controlled, and allowed by an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely loving God, then how can anything but capriciousness explain it? Do we really deserve all the suffering that we find ourselves born into? The hopelessness of being a child in Somolia without parents, family, friends, sound body, sound mind, or sound heart? Because an infinitely loving God specifically choose to love us and bless us less than others, but we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind to the best of our ability in turn, or face the consequence of infinite torture and pain the the afterlife?

Edited July 22, 2012 by Anomaly

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1342910835' post='2457655']

I would let all of you into heaven. Except Winchester.
[/quote]
Yeah, if you let Winchester into Heaven then Hell would become perfect.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1342930348' post='2457780']
If God loves one of us more than the other I will suppose that you are loved more than I.
[/quote]
I always liked the story of the prodigal son. It's a demonstration that no matter how bad my past has been and how sinful I've been Gods love for me is still perfect. It's the only hope I've got. I'm sure the father of the prodigal son still loved his other son just as much. It was a lesson to demonstrate that no matter what, God loves us all the same, albeit in a different way.
Then we have [url="http://www.drbo.org/"]Matthew 20:1–16.[/url] No matter how late or I suppose how little a person is in coming to God he gives them the same in Heaven. Is not Heaven Gods perfect love.

[quote]
God loves us both perfectly but not perhaps completely equal. And thats ok with me.


[/quote]
But if it's not equal then it cannot be perfect. If you got a higher score in theology than I and you got 100% then logically I got less than 100% and thus did not get a perfect score. Maybe you could explain this perfection without equivalence. As before, perfection but different, yes. As in a love for an offspring is different than a love for a spouse.
My mother apparently loved my late brother more than she loved me. Because I loved my brother very much, I was happy with this fact. If she had loved me more than he, then I would not have liked it at all. If I could ask him the same question, I'm sure he would reply that he was not happy about him receiving more than I. The only way it could be perfect is if her love for us both had been equal. For me to think that God loves me more than you would make me unhappy and be a concern.



[quote]Love is an act of the will. We are not slaves to love, love does not supersede the free will of man. When we say "I love you" be it directed to God, our beloved, family, friends or our fellow man it means so much more when we choose to have, hold and act on that love by our own free will than it would if love is something outside that will. God could have made a world where we love Him like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. But He did not make or want that kind of world because that kind of love, love without free will, is empty and void.[/quote]
I agree that Gods objective is to give us free choice of to love him or not, because once again love cannot be perfect if it is offered through promise of reward or threat of punishment. But that is our love of him, we are not perfect and our love of God is not perfect. This is shown everytime we sin. But God is perfect and loves us perfectly.
However as some here will attest not everyone can sense Gods love or may choose to love him, but cannot or else we wouldn't have our atheist friends. I cannot explain this! Maybe it's just a matter of those of us who have been blessed with attaining love for God striving to bring our friends to him and thus perfecting the three way love as I described with my bro.

[quote]CCC 1766: 1766 "To love is to will the good of another." 41 All other affections have their source in this first movement of the human heart toward the good. Only the good can be loved. 42 Passions "are evil if love is evil and good if it is. 43

1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good"[/quote]
I don't really see any connection here with the discussion. And as some of our learned colleges have stated, Church theologans are not necessarily correct nor is the Catechism. Although I would suspect that the CCC is near as humanly possible as it is a compilation of the many and as you know the opinions of the many outway the opinions of the one or the few.

Apologies for spelling, have just installed W7 and lexicons don't want to download for some reason.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1342965177' post='2457871']
Does it really bring us peace to conclude "God loves me because he gave me two eyes that work and I can walk, while that kid in the neighborhood has Cerebral Palsy and can't walk to the mail box without drooling and falling down"? That ineveitable leads to the question, what did I do to deserve this better situation? But it's the other side of that coin that asks, what did I do to deserve this torment of sexual attraction to people of the same sex, inability to be comfortable talking to someone, burning craving for drugs or alcohol, limited ability to do school work to get grades to attend college and get a good job to attend college and support a family, or -- why was I born in Somolia where even those worries would be unimagionable blessing?
[/quote]
John 9:1 And Jesus passing by, saw a man, who was blind from his birth: [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=9&l=2#x"][2][/url] And his disciples asked him: Rabbi, who hath sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? [url="http://www.drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=9&l=3#x"][3][/url] Jesus answered: Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents; but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.


[quote]If these circumstances of birth and situation are known, controlled, and allowed by an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely loving God, then how can anything but capriciousness explain it? Do we really deserve all the suffering that we find ourselves born into? The hopelessness of being a child in Somolia without parents, family, friends, sound body, sound mind, or sound heart? Because an infinitely loving God specifically choose to love us and bless us less than others, but we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind to the best of our ability in turn, or face the consequence of infinite torture and pain the the afterlife?[/quote]
I have no idea why I was born with anxiety that I could write an a4 page of horrible symptoms of, from crushing headaches to irrational phobias and to nausia and then to depression. But what I do believe is that God came to earth as a man and allowed himself to suffer as much as any human could possibly suffer as a demonstration of his love. This spells out that there must be a reason for my suffering and by faith and love of God...[i].I must accept whatever sickness torment or agony is yet to come. To every cross I touch my lips that lets me be with you a co-redeemer of humanity...[/i]

Edited July 23, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

Oops the phorum or W7 is trolling me!
A double scotch!

Edited July 23, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1342965177' post='2457871']
My point does not refute the idea that "God" apparently loves people inequally although "God" is an omnipotent being and creater of All past present and future with full knowledge and awareness of every persons inner thoughts, actions, and intents for every instance of existend past, present, and future. This religious/theological concept of an infinitely aware and infinitely loving God that chooses to allow individuals to have tortured and agonizing experiences here on earth because God chooses to love them less and then this God reserves the right to issue 'justice' in some vague afterlife according to "His" standards as expressed by "His" will incarnated in this realm of existence, "the Church"?

My point is this concept of God is illogical, unreasonable, cannot be explained or justified with weak claims of "it's a mystery" or another "theological conundrum".[/quote]

But you don't even understand the theological concept you are rejecting. No where have I stated, nor does any source I've used state that God loves those that suffer less than those with good health and wealth. This is a straw man you've created for yourself to defeat. It's also just a rebranding of the question why does God allow bad things to happen to good people.

If anything the opposite of your straw man is true. Those souls who are poor in spirit, they that morn, the meek, the poor, the hungry, and the persecuted/tortured receive a special blessing, a special love from God than those that do not have to carry such crosses.

[quote]
I'm guessing Ice_nine's original intent and posts was trying to rectify this concept (and possibly fearing her conclusions) of this idea that God may not love her as much as one of the beautiful, healthy, well adjusted, happy, untroubled persons. Yes, we all know people who have worse things to deal with than we have, but we also know people who are much better off than we are.[/quote]

Again you don't grasp the theological concept you are rejecting. Suffering is good because it is redemptive, and God indeed has a special love He gives to those that suffer.

[quote]Does it really bring us peace to conclude "God loves me because he gave me two eyes that work and I can walk, while that kid in the neighborhood has Cerebral Palsy and can't walk to the mail box without drooling and falling down"? That ineveitable leads to the question, what did I do to deserve this better situation? But it's the other side of that coin that asks, what did I do to deserve this torment of sexual attraction to people of the same sex, inability to be comfortable talking to someone, burning craving for drugs or alcohol, limited ability to do school work to get grades to attend college and get a good job to attend college and support a family, or -- why was I born in Somolia where even those worries would be unimagionable blessing?

If these circumstances of birth and situation are known, controlled, and allowed by an omnipotent, omniscient, infinitely loving God, then how can anything but capriciousness explain it? Do we really deserve all the suffering that we find ourselves born into? The hopelessness of being a child in Somolia without parents, family, friends, sound body, sound mind, or sound heart? Because an infinitely loving God specifically choose to love us and bless us less than others, but we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind to the best of our ability in turn, or face the consequence of infinite torture and pain the the afterlife?
[/quote]

Christ condemned and rebuked this pharisaical understanding of those born with disabilities. It is not a curse from God or anything in like manner to a curse. As someone born disabilities, heart and lung, seizures, strokes, relearning to talk and walk more than once I find your statements above to be completely asinine and beyond the pale stupid. It brings me peace to know my suffering is redemptive, to pick up my crosses, embrace them, and carry them daily. I and the many disabled people I've met in my life waiting in hospitals, doctor offices, etc, suffer no doubt and have great troubles no doubt but we are thankful for the life we are given and even the crosses we must bare. Because it makes us who we are. This world is fallen because of man, not God, those of sound body and mind should help those that suffer to carry their crosses rather than making useless cries of wrath against God.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1342998994' post='2457929']
I always liked the story of the prodigal son. It's a demonstration that no matter how bad my past has been and how sinful I've been Gods love for me is still perfect. It's the only hope I've got. I'm sure the father of the prodigal son still loved his other son just as much. It was a lesson to demonstrate that no matter what, God loves us all the same, albeit in a different way.
Then we have [url="http://www.drbo.org/"]Matthew 20:1–16.[/url] No matter how late or I suppose how little a person is in coming to God he gives them the same in Heaven. Is not Heaven Gods perfect love.

But if it's not equal then it cannot be perfect. If you got a higher score in theology than I and you got 100% then logically I got less than 100% and thus did not get a perfect score. Maybe you could explain this perfection without equivalence. As before, perfection but different, yes. As in a love for an offspring is different than a love for a spouse.
My mother apparently loved my late brother more than she loved me. Because I loved my brother very much, I was happy with this fact. If she had loved me more than he, then I would not have liked it at all. If I could ask him the same question, I'm sure he would reply that he was not happy about him receiving more than I. The only way it could be perfect is if her love for us both had been equal. For me to think that God loves me more than you would make me unhappy and be a concern.[/quote]

Does prefect really = equal/the same as? God's love for Mary is perfect. God's love for us is perfect. But is God's love for Mary equal or the same as His love for us? I would state that He loves her more or differently than us, but He loves us all perfectly.


[quote]I agree that Gods objective is to give us free choice of to love him or not, because once again love cannot be perfect if it is offered through promise of reward or threat of punishment. But that is our love of him, we are not perfect and our love of God is not perfect. This is shown everytime we sin. But God is perfect and loves us perfectly.
However as some here will attest not everyone can sense Gods love or may choose to love him, but cannot or else we wouldn't have our atheist friends. I cannot explain this! Maybe it's just a matter of those of us who have been blessed with attaining love for God striving to bring our friends to him and thus perfecting the three way love as I described with my bro.
[/quote]

I agree.

[quote]I don't really see any connection here with the discussion. And as some of our learned colleges have stated, Church theologans are not necessarily correct nor is the Catechism. Although I would suspect that the CCC is near as humanly possible as it is a compilation of the many and as you know the opinions of the many outway the opinions of the one or the few.

Apologies for spelling, have just installed W7 and lexicons don't want to download for some reason.
[/quote]

It's stating that love is an act of the will. Another proof of this is the commandment of Christ to love our enemies. Loving our enemies must be an act of the will.

Edited July 23, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1342898262' post='2457613']
Being a doctor of the Church doesn't make him infallible. It makes him really really smart. It makes him smarter than the rest of us. It certainly makes him smarter than me.



But not infallible
[/quote]

Agreed. But if the Church turns to him, we probably should, too.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1342928087' post='2457751']
No, but I like to talk about things sometimes with people who exist now, where questions can be asked in a language that's similar to the way I think and speak.

I don't like some things Aquinas has to say,brilliant and holy as he is. Could this be because he was wrong, or because I'm too much of a pansy to accept the "hard truths"? Idk. Plus I assume that the people who are responding have incorporated knowledge of other church doctors into their responses. Knowledge and writings of other saints that aren't as readily available/popular as Aquinas and which do not show up in like 80% of the hits on google.

And I find the rigid structure of Aquinas's arguments to be grating, although I understand it's to make things clear and organized. This is just personal opinion, but when talking about God's love and such, I feel this rigidness strips the topic of its wonder and mysticism. It's almost too plain and too simple and formulaic.
[/quote]

Okay - thanks for responding honestly! I'm sure I would agree with you - I've just never thought about it from that perspective before.

Hm... that brings up another question - time for a new thread...

Thanks!

[Jaime]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343050926' post='2458085']
Agreed. But if the Church turns to him, we probably should, too.
[/quote]

There are times when the Church should not turn to Aquinas.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='jaime' timestamp='1343057839' post='2458116']
There are times when the Church should not turn to Aquinas.
[/quote]

That may very well be true, but I'll let the Church decide if/when that is.

[Anomaly]

Thank you, Mark and Knight for the thoughtful responses. I see things from a slightly different perspective, so my conclusions are different, however, I'd like to be sure I'm getting your points correct, as far as they relate to Ice's original topic.

- God does love us differently. I think that was agreed by all, now what does that mean?

- Is this 'difference' quantititve, so your response would be God love's some of us more?
- Regardless of how or how much God loves us (or not), it is the 'perfect amount of love' we need or we deserve?
- Our suffering we endure through no fault of our own, we are born with it or born into the circumstances, it's still God's love because it's "redemptive" for anything wrong we've done. So in effect, we deserve it (suffering) anyways? Let's not muddle suffering caused by human "Free Will" into this.

[sixpence]

I started thinking about this (that's where I made my first mistake).

1. Even if God loves you only 10[sup]-10 [/sup]times as much as someone else, it is still more than you deserve and more than you can imagine....
2. For something to be more or less, it has to be measurable to begin with.....
3. A prof I know pretty much showed a proof that one infinity could be smaller than another infinity, while still both maintaining infinite-ness. However, time was involved so I don't know if that is relevant in relation to God.
4. I'm confused.