KnightofChrist Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1342861167' post='2457509'] Didn't JESUS also say "you hypocrites, tax collectors and prostitutes will get into heaven before you." I only say this coz what is close to christ anyway, it isn't something we can will with good works in prayer,word and deed, although these are all apart of the redemtive mission. It is not nescisarily something we can earn but something we can be open to recieve from GOD, his love that is. [/quote] The tax collectors and prostitutes were repenting and they believed and loved Christ, whilst the Pharisees rejected Him and hated Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1342854794' post='2457494'] youthinkIhaven'talreadyseenAquinas'sresponsewhydoyouthinkIaskedthisquestiononaninteractivephorumsillybear? [/quote] I thought the exact same thing - you even mentioned Aquinas in your first post. But this brings a question to my mind - out of curiosity. Do you give more weight to the opinions of a bunch of random people on the internet that you hardly know (maybe you know a few of them quite well), or to a canonized Doctor of the Church that, when in times of doubt, the Church herself turns to for theological direction? Or was it just your own curiosity about what others might say that prompted the thread? Again - not trying to offend - just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1342893615' post='2457589'] I thought the exact same thing - you even mentioned Aquinas in your first post. But this brings a question to my mind - out of curiosity. Do you give more weight to the opinions of a bunch of random people on the internet that you hardly know (maybe you know a few of them quite well), or to a canonized Doctor of the Church that, when in times of doubt, the Church herself turns to for theological direction? Or was it just your own curiosity about what others might say that prompted the thread? Again - not trying to offend - just curious. [/quote] Being a doctor of the Church doesn't make him infallible. It makes him really really smart. It makes him smarter than the rest of us. It certainly makes him smarter than me. But not infallible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1342846348' post='2457471'] I was kinda joking about the topic being hijacked. I don't think God loves Hassan more than Hasan, and I know that he doesn't love either of them as much as me. Tangenting. It happens, but when it does I just assume no one really wants to talk about the topic and the lols are fine. IF people do want to talk about it then gr8! Lets talk about it [/quote] I thought you might have been that's why I made fun, but apparently someone else is a serious grumpy poo. and an inconsistent one. [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1342847000' post='2457477'] Bull poo [/quote] Edited July 21, 2012 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1342846700' post='2457476'] Anyway no God does not love everyone the same. - [/quote] Some questions for you. So if supposing God loves you more than me, doesn't that make Gods love for me imperfect? And I don't recall ever choosing to love someone, it just happened! There are people who love some really awful people, why would they choose that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1342846348' post='2457471'] I was kinda joking about the topic being hijacked. I don't think God loves Hassan more than Hasan, and I know that he doesn't love either of them as much as me. Tangenting. It happens, but when it does I just assume no one really wants to talk about the topic and the lols are fine. IF people do want to talk about it then gr8! Lets talk about it [/quote] Unless God is a cantankerous and foul-mouthed 20 something year old North Carolinian with an interest in Bosnian literature. Then perhaps God loves Hasan exactly as much as Hasan loves Hasan. Hmmmmmmm........ I would let all of you into heaven. Except Winchester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1342910835' post='2457655'] I would let all of you into heaven. [/quote]YAY! THIS MEANS THE ABSOLUTE WORLD TO ME. If I had ten bazillion dollars I would buy you a small federation planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1342910835' post='2457655'] Unless God is a cantankerous and foul-mouthed 20 something year old North Carolinian with an interest in Bosnian literature. Then perhaps God loves Hasan exactly as much as Hasan loves Hasan. Hmmmmmmm........ I would let all of you into heaven. Except Winchester. [/quote] But it would be like in the mormon system where everybody gets a heaven planet, and I know for a fact that you'd get a lame planet. Probably one like Pluto, where after you were on it for 50 years or something they would tell you that it wasn't even actually a planet, just a big lame rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1342927436' post='2457740'] But it would be like in the mormon system where everybody gets a heaven planet, and I know for a fact that you'd get a lame planet. Probably one like Pluto, where after you were on it for 50 years or something they would tell you that it wasn't even actually a planet, just a big lame rock. [/quote] It's been real y'all, I'm becoming Mormon. If their missionaries were smart, that'd be their recruiting pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted July 22, 2012 Author Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1342893615' post='2457589'] I thought the exact same thing - you even mentioned Aquinas in your first post. But this brings a question to my mind - out of curiosity. Do you give more weight to the opinions of a bunch of random people on the internet that you hardly know (maybe you know a few of them quite well), or to a canonized Doctor of the Church that, when in times of doubt, the Church herself turns to for theological direction? Or was it just your own curiosity about what others might say that prompted the thread? Again - not trying to offend - just curious. [/quote] No, but I like to talk about things sometimes with people who exist now, where questions can be asked in a language that's similar to the way I think and speak. I don't like some things Aquinas has to say,brilliant and holy as he is. Could this be because he was wrong, or because I'm too much of a pansy to accept the "hard truths"? Idk. Plus I assume that the people who are responding have incorporated knowledge of other church doctors into their responses. Knowledge and writings of other saints that aren't as readily available/popular as Aquinas and which do not show up in like 80% of the hits on google. And I find the rigid structure of Aquinas's arguments to be grating, although I understand it's to make things clear and organized. This is just personal opinion, but when talking about God's love and such, I feel this rigidness strips the topic of its wonder and mysticism. It's almost too plain and too simple and formulaic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1342907386' post='2457641'] Some questions for you. So if supposing God loves you more than me, doesn't that make Gods love for me imperfect? [/quote] If God loves one of us more than the other I will suppose that you are loved more than I. God loves us both perfectly but not perhaps completely equal. And thats ok with me. [quote] And I don't recall ever choosing to love someone, it just happened! There are people who love some really awful people, why would they choose that? [/quote] Love is an act of the will. We are not slaves to love, love does not supersede the free will of man. When we say "I love you" be it directed to God, our beloved, family, friends or our fellow man it means so much more when we choose to have, hold and act on that love by our own free will than it would if love is something outside that will. God could have made a world where we love Him like the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. But He did not make or want that kind of world because that kind of love, love without free will, is empty and void. CCC 1766: 1766 "To love is to will the good of another." 41 All other affections have their source in this first movement of the human heart toward the good. Only the good can be loved. 42 Passions "are evil if love is evil and good if it is. 43 - 41 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,26 4, corp. art. 42 Cf. St. Augustine, De Trin.,8,3,4:PL 42,949-950. 43 St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 14,7,2:PL 41,410. ---- 1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection "in seeking and loving what is true and good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 (edited) Explain gods requirement that we love him with all our heart soul and mind yet he ( who is omnipotent) chooses to love some of us less than others. And if it is only by grace we are able to love god then why are some of us given less grace to love god and are then loved less by god. Sounds like a capricious god toying with ants and a magnifying glass. Edited July 22, 2012 by Anomaly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Love and Freedom by Card. George Source: http://www.catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2011/0410/cardinal.aspx Charity or almsgiving is the third component of the discipline of Lent, along with prayer and fasting. Almsgiving is a way of expressing our love of neighbor, coming to his or her help in response to their needs. Love of neighbor is the second great commandment. The first commandment, of course, is to love God with all our hearts and minds and souls. Since God is not needy, we can’t give him alms. We can, however, return to him what he, in his infinite love, has given us: everything we have and are. We can also daily demonstrate our love for God by doing his will, by following his way, marked out by the commandments, the beatitudes and the natural moral law written in our hearts. Obedience to the way of the Lord is a source of joy for those who love him and a source of resentment for those who don’t. We love God and therefore willingly obey him because God loves us first. Some weeks ago, I wrote that God does not love everyone equally. A significant number of people have raised questions about that statement, and I would like to return to it. The basic truth is that God loves everyone, all of us and each of us. “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ,†St. Paul asks. “Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us†(Rom 8:35- 37). We can and should count on that love, even when we have sinned. God’s love is called mercy, because God is always eager to forgive. God loves us. He desires what is good for each of us, which is what a lover always desires for the beloved. God loves everyone with an infinite love; but God is also completely free. He makes choices, as do we. Why did God accept Abel’s sacrifice and reject Cain’s? We don’t know. Why did God choose the Jews and not the Chinese in order to save the world? We don’t know. Why did God choose Mary of Nazareth and send an angel to tell her that she is “blessed among women,†when there were thousands of other young women eager to do God’s will? We don’t know. Why was St. Francis of Assisi, in his time and in ours, singled out as the man most like Christ? We don’t know. God is free to choose special relationships, and he does so. Some look at people and see individuals and their rights; others look at people and see persons and their relationships. “Rights†are the realm of equality, where legal justice is paramount. “Relationships†bring us into the realm of love, and not all relationships are equal. A husband loves his wife more than he loves other women, although he is called to love everyone. A citizen loves her own country and feels an obligation towards its flourishing that affects her life in ways more profound than does her general love of all humanity. Loving everyone and giving everyone his or her proper due, as the virtue of justice enables us to do, go hand in hand. The dynamics of love and of justice, however, are not the same as the demands of purely legalistic equality. Legal rights might be equally protected, but justice can still go wanting and love be banished. Jesus said that he had come to fulfill the law (Mt 5:17). He fulfilled it in love. God is not bound by our idea of what it is right for him to do. It’s all gift, and gifts are not the same for everyone. Gifts from God, however, no matter how small or how large, are given in love. And that is enough for us to know so that we might go forward through life confident that God loves us. This issue touches on many other theological conundrums. How is it possible that an all-powerful God loves us with an infinite tenderness but that we can still reject that love and be separated from him forever? How is it possible that God is sovereign but that we remain free? How does the suffering of the innocent square with the fact of God’s love? There are multiple ways to approach these questions, and the value in thinking about them lies in their helping us to come to an ever clearer grasp of the immensity of God’s love and the mystery of our freedom, of the inexplicable nature of God’s free actions and the daily struggle of the saints to conform their lives to God’s will. Mysteries that escape our complete comprehension can nevertheless elicit our gratitude and motivate our love of God and neighbor. Finally, in the scheme of things governed by God’s grace, we are to love our neighbor because God loves the neighbor, even when we are not naturally attracted to him or her. The conviction that God loves everyone should not makes us complacent about our own status in God’s eyes and in his heart; it should instead lead us to seek out those who seem most neglected or even hated and freely give them the alms of our love so that they too will come to the knowledge of God’s love for them and for everyone he has created and Christ has redeemed. Sincerely yours in Christ, Francis Cardinal George, OMI Archbishop of Chicago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 He's actually making Anomaly's point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1342934023' post='2457831'] He's actually making Anomaly's point [/quote] I missed the part where he said God was a apricious god toying with ants and a magnifying glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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