God's Love Different (sorry If This Has Been Asked Before)

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1343685054' post='2460399']
I think it would be contrary to God's nature to do something "without any reason at all."

This doesn't mean we have to understand the reason/s, but I think it's dangerous to say that God can do whatever He wants.
I mean He [i]can[/i], but He is also bound by His perfect nature so there are some things He won't do.
[/quote]
Exactly! The response "God can do whatever he wants" is usually a cop out when you have no further argument. It's about one post above a personal attack on other posters.[b] God cannot do whatever he wants![/b] I once asked the question can God change logic. Apo said logic is part of Gods nature. God cannot be both all loving and all powerful. If he was then he would have made us perfect for immediate transfer to paradise. Would he have suffered on the cross to save us if a twitch of the nose would suffice? Enduring unbearable pain was the only way to accomplish what he wanted and he couldn't change that or surely he would have.

[quote]Such as doing things for no reason at all.[/quote]
Like loving people to varying degrees and so far no one has presented a reason let alone a plausable one as to why he would love some more than others. Fides says
[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343678054' post='2460337']
but there's still a fallacious idea running around that somehow the level of God's love for us might be dependent on our own deeds.
[/quote]
And he is correct because it is illogical to give a person more grace and then to love them more because they have more grace. It's circular and it's illogical. God has a very valid purpose for the child in the wheel chair that does nothing but drool and try to hold its head up all day. In some way that we can't see God has given this child grace by its effect on those around it, as well as the grace of not being able to wilfully sin.
[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1343661683' post='2460225']
So succinctly, if God interacts with [s]the ants[/s] us, God will do what God wants to do: Give, take, love, grace, punish, burden, bless, let live, let die, show, hide, forgive, condemn, heal, afflict, respond, ignore;

regardless of your feelings, needs, wants, desires, opinion, or ability to comprehend, recognize, identify, understand, accept.
[/quote]
Not sure what you're aiming at here. Maybe it's a good response to knight. But my answer would be a resounding NO! I personally don't see God as a punishing/condemning God. We are quite capable of doing that to ourselves. All the other things you mention for example suffering/burdens are in the form of graces to develop our or others ethos. How can I feed the hungry if there are non that hunger? How can I visit the imprisoned if the prisons are empty?

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343614313' post='2460117']
Mark, the love of God and the grace of God are inseparable. The two therefore can be synonymous. One cannot exist without the other. Both are free and undeserved gifts of Love Himself. Salvation is grace and that grace, like all graces is a gift of love from Love. If grace isn't love then "for He so loved the world He sent His only begotten Son" loses a lot of meaning.

You've not answered my questions. You've just denied that grace is love or attempted, in error, to separate the two so you could avoid admitting God loves Mary more.
[/quote]
Love and grace may have similarities and go together because graces are an expression of love and vicy versa, but they are not interchangeable and by dictionary definition are not synonyms.
Back to the OP thread start.
Ice_nine stated that she has read documents written by Church peoples but wanted personal opinions. I've given mine by the best of my ability to base it on logic, some deduced from scripture. There's every possibility that I'm totally wrong! However it's my opinion and I've not seen a valid argument against it, so I'm sticking to it! I have attempted to answer your questions which obviously can be argued against or else it would be indisputable proof and it would have been game over days ago. Many Catholics apparently attribute supernatural status to Mary. I have no way of knowing if this is true or not. She may be no different than many of the innocent nuns that I have met. On the other hand she may be a special created being. Either way she is the queen of saints and holds a very elevated position. But I'm sure just as in the case of St Peter there has been people who in the form of graces of strength, courage and faith have accomplished really amesome comparable feats and is why the Church elevated them to saint status.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1343685054' post='2460399']
I think it would be contrary to God's nature to do something "without any reason at all."

This doesn't mean we have to understand the reason/s, but I think it's dangerous to say that God can do whatever He wants. I mean He [i]can[/i], but He is also bound by His perfect nature so there are some things He won't do.

Such as doing things for no reason at all.
[/quote]

There is a reason why God does what He wills, but He is not at liberty to give us His reasons. Why did God choose the place in time that He did to send the Christ? Why did He favor the israelites over the other nations? Why does He answer some prayers of the most holiest of saints with a yes and others a no, when the two prayers are effectively of the same kind?

I do not know, nor may I ever know. God is a mystery, He does things we know not why, but He always has reason. If we know it or not. Even if we cannot know why Mary was more and is more loved my God than us does not mean we cannot know that He did on account of the special graces given her, many of which no other will receive.

Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343691330' post='2460444']
Exactly! The response "God can do whatever he wants" is usually a cop out when you have no further argument. It's about one post above a personal attack on other posters.[b] God cannot do whatever he wants![/b] I once asked the question can God change logic. Apo said logic is part of Gods nature. God cannot be both all loving and all powerful. If he was then he would have made us perfect for immediate transfer to paradise. Would he have suffered on the cross to save us if a twitch of the nose would suffice? Enduring unbearable pain was the only way to accomplish what he wanted and he couldn't change that or surely he would have.[/quote]

God is a mystery. The Holy Trinity is such an example. Logic is part of God's nature, but that does not mean that human logic will ever understand why or how God is one and unique in His infinite substance or nature, and three Divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's a mystery, it's not a cop out. We don't know the mind or heart of God. Why He choses to favor or love some more than others is known only to Him and to Him alone.

[quote]Love and grace may have similarities and go together because graces are an expression of love and vicy versa, but they are not interchangeable and by dictionary definition are not synonyms.
Back to the OP thread start.
[/quote]

No matter if that you state is completely factual. Love cannot be separated from Grace, either love is the cause of the grace given or love comes with the grace given, or be it some other way. The grace of God is married to the love of God. At no time is the grace of God separated from the love of God. When God gave us the grace of Salvation He gave us His love in the person of Jesus Christ. His love for humanity was the cause for His giving the grace of salvation to humanity. The greater graces that Mary received she received because God loved her more than others.

Your postion as it currently stands requires the two to be separated somehow for your version of the 'logic' of God loving everyone equally but different to work. When you are ready to admit the two cannot be separated and can actually address post #96 I will be more than happy to answer the questions you've asked of me since I've asked you to address post #96. As well as any before you think I missed as best as I can.

Edited August 1, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[beaverman]

I think God loves us all equally but some people please him more than others.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='beaverman' timestamp='1343784533' post='2460949']
I think God loves us all equally but some people please him more than others.
[/quote]

Is God's love and God's grace inseparable?

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343781421' post='2460907']
There is a reason why God does what He wills, but He is not at liberty to give us His reasons. Why did God choose the place in time that He did to send the Christ? Why did He favor the israelites over the other nations? Why does He answer some prayers of the most holiest of saints with a yes and others a no, when the two prayers are effectively of the same kind?

I do not know, nor may I ever know. God is a mystery, He does things we know not why, but He always has reason. If we know it or not. Even if we cannot know why Mary was more and is more loved my God than us does not mean we cannot know that He did on account of the special graces given her, many of which no other will receive.
[/quote]

so long story short, we agree here.




You know, I've since read/watched commentaries about this and they all somehow go back to [i]Summa[/i]. And they usually say that one doesn't HAVE to believe in these particular ideas and that there are other schools of thought (which they NEVER seem to mention, probably cause, for whatever reason, have been marginalized over the years into obscurity). However the way it's been explained generally is that God is of one essence so the [i]intensity[/i] of His love for us does not differ from person to person, however God loves things by making them gooder, and some more than others.

I'd still like to see if I can find any different, less prominent schools of thought, but I'm OK with this Thomistic philosophy should it prove true, because I was more so concerned about the intensity factor of God's love, not necessarily "making things gooder than others" factor. Especially seeing as the "to whom much has been given, much is required" really levels the playing field. If Mary ever sinned, it would have been more catastrophic for her, with the grace she was given, to turn from God, and she had to go through immense suffering.

Hollaz

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1343685054' post='2460399']
I think it would be contrary to God's nature to do something "without any reason at all."

This doesn't mean we have to understand the reason/s, but I think it's dangerous to say that God can do whatever He wants. I mean He [i]can[/i], but He is also bound by His perfect nature so there are some things He won't do.

Such as doing things for no reason at all.
[/quote]

Agreed! My point was simply that we don't need to know God's reasons for everything.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343691330' post='2460444']
Exactly! The response "God can do whatever he wants" is usually a cop out when you have no further argument. It's about one post above a personal attack on other posters.[b] God cannot do whatever he wants![/b] I once asked the question can God change logic. Apo said logic is part of Gods nature. God cannot be both all loving and all powerful. If he was then he would have made us perfect for immediate transfer to paradise. Would he have suffered on the cross to save us if a twitch of the nose would suffice? Enduring unbearable pain was the only way to accomplish what he wanted and he couldn't change that or surely he would have.
[/quote]

Did you actually mean this? Because that's heresy. God is both all-loving and all-powerful (almighty).

God can do whatever He wants within the confines of the object's nature. It is said that God cannot create a square circle. (Although I have my suspicions that we may be surprised at how close He can come to this later on...). I would guess, likewise, then, that God can't create a being with free will and then force that being to love Him.

God did make us perfect. We simply failed.

Edit: want to add - one drop of Christ's blood would have been enough to save all humanity. He suffered more and died for us out of love, not logical necessity.

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343691330' post='2460444']
Like loving people to varying degrees and so far no one has presented a reason let alone a plausable one as to why he would love some more than others.
[/quote]

You mean like the reasons given by St. Thomas Aquinas? You may not have read the entire thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343691330' post='2460444']
And he is correct because it is illogical to give a person more grace and then to love them more because they have more grace. It's circular and it's illogical. God has a very valid purpose for the child in the wheel chair that does nothing but drool and try to hold its head up all day. In some way that we can't see God has given this child grace by its effect on those around it, as well as the grace of not being able to wilfully sin.
[/quote]

And yet, if St. Thomas Aquinas is right, this happens. My point is simply that none of us understands God. It might seem like circular logic to you, but you don't understand God, so...

I'm left with Aquinas' Summa.

Edited August 1, 2012 by fides' Jack

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343783154' post='2460924']
God is a mystery.
[/quote]
Mr Godwin should add that to religious debate after the comparrison to Hitler! It's usually the answer when you've run out of steam. The next post is 'That's heresy!' which is to attack the posters loyalty to his faith to undermine his/her confidence and thus deter him/her from replying. Is trying to steer the other poster into showing disrespect for Mary also a ploy?

[quote]The Holy Trinity is such an example. Logic is part of God's nature, but that does not mean that human logic will ever understand why or how God is one and unique in His infinite substance or nature, and three Divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's a mystery, it's not a cop out. We don't know the mind or heart of God. Why He choses to favor or love some more than others is known only to Him and to Him alone.[/quote]


Well I don't think there's anything I would disagree with here, but unfortunatally its not relevant. There is one glaringly obvious flaw though that arises. If you do not know why God loves some more than others, then how can you possibly know or accept that he does?

[quote]
No matter if that you state is completely factual. Love cannot be separated from Grace, either love is the cause of the grace given or love comes with the grace given, or be it some other way. The grace of God is married to the love of God. At no time is the grace of God separated from the love of God. When God gave us the grace of Salvation He gave us His love in the person of Jesus Christ. His love for humanity was the cause for His giving the grace of salvation to humanity. The greater graces that Mary received she received because God loved her more than others.[/quote]
On another forum someone posted the story of 'Sophie Scholl'. As the woman that bore his earthly body Mary has a special place or honour and God/Jesus has a unique and special love for her as a child for its mother. No other person has that honour or position. But! Does God love Mary more than Sophie Scholl. Sophie stood up to the Nazis (compliments to Mr Godwin) to protest their inhumane treatment of Gods children. I don't know why you keep harping on this post96. I believe I have answered it and as I've said I wish to avoid it not because I can't answer, but out of respect for the most blessed Virgin. 'Hail Mary full of Grace, blessed are you amongst women' God gave Mary the most high grace of all being the bearer of his earthly body. He gave Sophie and people like her the grace of courage and love to speak out and oppose a most vial evil in the face of terrible consequences. This is why Gods love is different but its still pure love and it's digital. It just is!


[quote]Your postion as it currently stands requires the two to be separated somehow for your version of the 'logic' of God loving everyone equally but different to work. When you are ready to admit the two cannot be separated and can actually address post #96 I will be more than happy to answer the questions you've asked of me since I've asked you to address post #96. As well as any before you think I missed as best as I can.[/quote]
number 96 sounds like an old australian soapy lol. I'm starting to gets L_Ds problem of feeling like a broken record answering it.
Man and woman can't be separated either but they are not the same thing. Analogy:- A parent puts one child through university but gives another more attention to daily needs because it is disabled. These are kind of graces, they are different, they cannot be separated from love. But the love of the both can be the same. You seem to be struggling on your concept of meaning. If grace and love are the same, why do we need to use the both to describe what God is and God does.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1343854168' post='2461242']
Did you actually mean this? Because that's heresy. God is both all-loving and all-powerful (almighty).
[/quote]
Okay then if discussion and giving personal opinion is heresy, then Dust should close all debate threads and only have qanda. Heresy is the teaching of that which contradicts Church teaching on faith and morals. We are giving personal opinions by the OPs request. I have made it clear that I am giving an opinion. I am not teaching anyone! I do not have Church scholar or even militant tag! My opinion has no more weight than non Catholic posters. In case it wasn't clear I accept that God is all-loving. That's what I've been arguing for. It's all powerful that I have difficulty with re he cannot do what 'Anomaly' inferred.

[quote]God can do whatever He wants within the confines of the object's nature. It is said that God cannot create a square circle. (Although I have my suspicions that we may be surprised at how close He can come to this later on...). I would guess, likewise, then, that God can't create a being with free will and then force that being to love Him.[/quote]
Then what's your beef? My statement that God is not all powerful is only in the sense that he cannot make a rock that he can't lift. He can't contradict logic because he is perfect logic. He can't love 100% but to varying amounts.

[quote]God did make us perfect. We simply failed.[/quote]
This is a square circle! He made us imperfect by giving us free will. When I asked why he didn't make us perfect and take us to heaven is because without free choice we couldn't attain perfect love which is love by choice. And that's the primary reason for all this because that's how it is and even God couldn't change it. He would be making a square circle if he did.

[quote]Edit: want to add - one drop of Christ's blood would have been enough to save all humanity. He suffered more and died for us out of love, not logical necessity.[/quote]
Touche' on this. Concede! I was wwww rrrrr www rrroo n nngg (LOL) His sacrifice was the highest expression of love. Perfect unmeasurable love. He probably could have done it another way, but that would have meant that he loved us less than he does. So he[u] couldn't![/u]


[quote]
You mean like the reasons given by St. Thomas Aquinas? You may not have read the entire thread. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...[/quote]
Sorry I'm a bit forgetful and I have a short attention span where I tend to not read all posts. In particular long ones. I think I did google Aquinas and thought it a bit vague. Can't remember! Maybe I should look again. Do you have a good link? I messaged Fr. Barron since he does some excellent heretical videos on such topics. I don't know if he will respond, but it would be interesting if he does.



[quote]And yet, if St. Thomas Aquinas is right, this happens. My point is simply that none of us understands God. It might seem like circular logic to you, but you don't understand God, so...

I'm left with Aquinas' Summa.[/quote]
You would prolly be very wise to take Aquinas opinion over mine, but that's not what the OP was asking. She already has Aquinas opinion but obviously wasn't satisfied. And its not my opinion that will answer for her it is the opinion of the many which can come about by responses to other posters and thus healthy soul searching debate.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343864485' post='2461337']
Man and woman can't be separated either but they are not the same thing. Analogy:- A parent puts one child through university but gives another more attention to daily needs because it is disabled. These are kind of graces, they are different, they cannot be separated from love. But the love of the both can be the same. You seem to be struggling on your concept of meaning. If grace and love are the same, why do we need to use the both to describe what God is and God does.
[/quote]

I have not argued they are the same, but that each can at times be used for the same meaning. Such as the grace given to us for salvation and the love given to us for salvation. Still the grace of God and the love of God are inseparable. You are still dodging, your analogy is a good analogy when we talk of the love of men. But it falls apart when compared to the love of God. Image in your analogy family has a girl. This girl was created perfect in every way by the Father, she is made the most blessed among the girls of the family, every day the Mother asks all the other children of the household to ask for this girl's help above the help of any of the other children save the eldest Son, any request she makes is automatically answered in the affirmative by the Father and eldest Son (unlike the other children), the Father and the eldest Son save her body from corruption, the Father and eldest Son make her queen the house, etc etc etc.

The Father would love this daughter more than His other children, because He has given her far greater graces. Graces which cannot be separated from His love.

Edited August 2, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1343794879' post='2460989']
so long story short, we agree here.




You know, I've since read/watched commentaries about this and they all somehow go back to [i]Summa[/i]. And they usually say that one doesn't HAVE to believe in these particular ideas and that there are other schools of thought (which they NEVER seem to mention, probably cause, for whatever reason, have been marginalized over the years into obscurity). However the way it's been explained generally is that God is of one essence so the [i]intensity[/i] of His love for us does not differ from person to person, however God loves things by making them gooder, and some more than others.

I'd still like to see if I can find any different, less prominent schools of thought, but I'm OK with this Thomistic philosophy should it prove true, because I was more so concerned about the intensity factor of God's love, not necessarily "making things gooder than others" factor. Especially seeing as the "to whom much has been given, much is required" really levels the playing field. If Mary ever sinned, it would have been more catastrophic for her, with the grace she was given, to turn from God, and she had to go through immense suffering.

Hollaz
[/quote]

I would be interested in also reading and watching these commentaries. I also understand that Aquinas' teaching on this is the more common teaching, but there are others, still since it is a common teaching outright denial of it would be unwise. Not that you do of course. Also the other schools of thought could also be true and while Aquinas' school of thought also true. After all Aquinas' school of thought on the matter is clearly open to two different kinds of views on the love of God, one equal, one not equal.

Edited August 2, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343873821' post='2461409']
I have not argued they are the same, but that each can at times be used for the same meaning.
[/quote]
Huh?

[quote]Such as the grace given to us for salvation and the love given to us for salvation.[/quote]

God gives us graces to use as a tool to attain salvation not just for ourselves but also for others, because he loves us and hopes for our salvation.

I suggest you read this document dump. It's a bit complex, I have some difficulty getting the full meaning, but it might help you with your understanding of the meaning of grace.
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm"]Catholic Encyclopedia. on Grace![/url]

As above God gives graces as a means to fulfil his desire of salvation, not just for us but also for those we come into contact with. He also gives graces as little tidbits because he loves us. He does this whenever he can that does not interfere with his purpose.
From the link.
[quote]Thus we petition [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url], under the guidance of the Church, for mere natural graces, as health, favourable weather, deliverance from plague, famine, and war.[/quote]


[quote]
Still the grace of God and the love of God are inseparable. You are still dodging, your analogy is a good analogy when we talk of the love of men. But it falls apart when compared to the love of God. Image in your analogy family has a girl. This girl was created perfect in every way by the Father, she is made the most blessed among the girls of the family, every day the Mother asks all the other children of the household to ask for this girl's help above the help of any of the other children save the eldest Son, any request she makes is automatically answered in the affirmative by the Father and eldest Son (unlike the other children), the Father and the eldest Son save her body from corruption, the Father and eldest Son make her queen the house, etc etc etc.
[/quote]
That would be an imperfect love. It is one that is often seen in families. A parent favours a child because of their talent/loyalty or just because and gives them favour and power and preference over their siblings. This is human imperfect behaviour because we are imperfect. Your analogy would not apply to God who is perfect!

[quote]The Father would love this daughter more than His other children, because He has given her far greater graces. Graces which cannot be separated from His love.[/quote]
Circular basless logic again. For no reason, God gives one person more graces than another and then loves them more because they have more graces and accomplish more for God. Remember Gods objective for us is salvation not glory! It would be analogous to a teacher giving more instruction to a favourite student and then favouring them over another equivalent talented student because of their higher score. Once again it would be faulty on the basis that there would be no reason for the original favouritism. It would be human faulty favouritism.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1343875034' post='2461415']
still since it is a common teaching outright denial of it would be unwise. Not that you do of course.
[/quote]
Have you watched Fr Barron videos? "Hell has the lock on the inside". Watch the one on 'Born again' it just comes short of saying that the baptism Christ was talking about is the baptism of the Holy Spirit ie it comes from above, but kind of has a disclaimer ' lets not omit the physical.' Have you read JP2 on H.H. & P are states not places? I would say a lot of 'opinions' of very prominent religious people are not common teaching. Common teaching is based on a relative ignorant persons view in many cases. Majority is true, but not necessarily all of it. For what purpose did God give us an enquiring thinking brain with a desire to explore faith and learn from our thoughts rather than the thoughts of others who could well be wrong. Icy is doing this and I encourage her to continue and not be put off by remarks such as 'He's a Church Dr.' 'That's heretical!' There's every possibility that Icys brain is more highly evolved with a far greater access to information than ancient scholars dreamed of. I can only remember fragments of scriptures. But when I want to quote one, I type in to Google as best as I can recall and straight away I get the precise wording and the ch. vers reference. Rather incredible and extremely helpful in my quest to know God more.


[quote]Also the other schools of thought could also be true and while Aquinas' school of thought also true. After all Aquinas' school of thought on the matter is clearly open to two different kinds of views on the love of God, one equal, one not equal.[/quote]
This is some new tactic to confuse me. Right? It's working! You shot your argument by the statement Aquinus is open to two one equal one not. I suppose I could say that too by claiming I'm only giving my current opinion which is open to change if given some proof! This pretty much says that Aquinas never said either way??

Edited August 3, 2012 by Mark of the Cross

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343954271' post='2461777']
This is some new tactic to confuse me. Right? It's working! You shot your argument by the statement Aquinus is open to two one equal one not. I suppose I could say that too by claiming I'm only giving my current opinion which is open to change if given some proof! This pretty much says that Aquinas never said either way??
[/quote]

It may be something of a paradox but both are true. I agree with Aquinas, God loves everyone equally from one point of view, and He loves everyone unequally from another point of view. I think its wrong to out right deny either. There are also different ways to look at the equal and unequal way God love us all. Jimmy Akin sums up four different ways of looking at the equal and unequal ways of God's love for us all. Again I believe all are true or have truth to them thus outright denial would be unwise of either way of looking at God's love for us all.


[quote]

[url="http://jimmyakin.com/2006/08/who_does_god_lo.html"]Who Does God Love More?[/url]
by Jimmy Akin

...

1) If you are talking about God’s perspective on individuals apart from his blessings and their responding actions, God loves all equally since we all have nothing apart from what he has given us.

2) If you are talking about God’s granting of blessings as his love then God loves some more than others–not because he is more drawn to their good points (for they have none apart from his blessings)–but because he gives some greater blessings than others.

3) If you are talking about God’s perspective on what he expects from us once he has given us his blessings then he does not love one more than another since he expects performance from creatures in proportion to the blessings they have received.

4) If you are talking about God’s perspective on what people actually have done with their blessings by free will (produce much fruit; produce little fruit; produce little anti-fruit; produce much anti-fruit) then God does love one more than another because he approves those who have worked good rather than evil and he approves those workers of good who have applied themselves more diligently with what they were given.

One final thing that it’s helpful to remember in thinking about this subject is that God loves everyone and gives everyone sufficient grace to be saved. These are truths that set the parameters of the above discussion, which takes place within the limits they set.[/quote]

Edited August 3, 2012 by KnightofChrist

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' timestamp='1343866438' post='2461345']
Then what's your beef? My statement that God is not all powerful is only in the sense that he cannot make a rock that he can't lift. He can't contradict logic because he is perfect logic. He can't love 100% but to varying amounts.
[/quote]

My only beef was with your comments regarding God's nature. He is all perfect. He is all loving. He is all powerful (almighty).

He does love 100%. He can't possibly love any less because He [i]is[/i] love. He's also almighty. To be any less would mean that He's not God.

You seem to think that our own failings reflect negatively on the nature of God. They don't.

You also seem to have a better grasp than I do on the philosophical meaning of a lot of this, so I'm perplexed as to why you're having an issue with this stuff.

The above are truths taught in the Catechism. God is all perfect, all knowing, all loving, almighty, etc... Some of these things will seem contradictory to us, because we are limited in our understanding. That might sound like a copout - as you appeared to suggest above - but the truth is that if you need to understand the logical proof of God's nature to believe, you'll never believe. That's why we also need faith.