If You Had To Choose

[havok579257]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1342382130' post='2455876']
I guess my point was:

Which do you consider more important... TYPE of liturgy ("contemporary" vs more "traditional") or DAY of liturgy (Sat Vigil vs. Sun morning)
[/quote]

i consider mass important and Jesus is present in both masses. no matter if there is clapping or contempary music Jesus is still present. Never forgot no matter how much you disagree with some of the stuff at certain masses, the mass is about Jesus and he is present.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1342379292' post='2455855']
This thread frustrates me in all sorts of ways...

I would equally like both. I think (and I have witnessed this) that a band can play at Mass and still stay reverent and stay within the mystery of the liturgy. It happens all the time at various youth conferences.

I would also love the Vigil Mass.


I feel that my personal preferences on how I like to worship (whether it be in a more conservative or contemporary way) does not change what the church teaches on how the Mass is to be celebrated. That is an obvious fact that we can all agree on.

But what [i]does[/i] the Church actually say? Does It say "though shalt not have a band at Mass?" Does it say, "though shalt not be joyful at Mass"? If so, then fine. No joy, no drums, and no "New Evangelization".

Your absolutely right that there should not be applause at Mass, but there are different ways of clapping other than applause.. When a Mass ends at a Youth Conference the place is usually alive with a joyful energy. We clap along with the music because we are happy, and we are [i]celebrating[/i][i]. [/i]Isn't that what Mass is? A celebration?

Don't get me wrong though, I would never tolerate a "kum-ba-ya" attitude in Mass. But there is a difference between a Contemporary Mass, and "Jesus Camp".


Im probably about to get chewed out for this, but hey, you asked. End rant.
[/quote]

Please... don't even get me started.

I'll just hit at what you obviously don't understand. No, the Mass is not a celebration. The Mass is a [i]sacrifice [/i]- the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The[i] liturgy[/i] can be joyful (doesn't mean drums - not by a long shot), but there's a reason that at the most crucial point in the Mass, no music is allowed. That point in the Mass should be somber.

Feast days are days of celebration. Major feasts, such as the holy days of obligation, are meant for celebration. The chosen music for the liturgy present on those days should reflect the meaning of the feasts (ie, most of those should be joyful music), but they should also be [i]reverent [/i](which is something that drums will never be capable of in this country - no matter what you or anyone else thinks).

[fides' Jack]

Okay, after rethinking my hastily typed position, I admit that I was wrong. Mass is a celebration, but I hate the attitude of Mass portrayed above.

Edit: drums have absolutely nothing to do with the new evangelization.

Edited July 15, 2012 by fides' Jack

[BigJon16]

Its razzle dazzle.

You did make a great point about the drums though. It is hard for them to be reverent.



I think I failed to emphasize one thing: I am no way against the more traditional celebrations of the Mass. But I enjoy contemporary Christian worship music, and have had wonderful and reverent experiences with that type of music within the Mass and Adoration.

Yes, silence is important as well, and sometimes is a key to truly being reverent and opening oneself to the Eucharist.


I like to think of it as "when you sing, you pray twice." There is something about worship music that I think adds a lot to Mass and Adoration. It helps me to open up sometimes and get into the spirit of the liturgy. But sometimes it is not needed.

Edited July 15, 2012 by BigJon16

[BigJon16]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1342384900' post='2455887']


Edit: drums have absolutely nothing to do with the new evangelization.
[/quote]

hahaha. I was being facetious.

[Lil Red]

tbh....i am not usually bothered by the music at Mass (contemporary or traditional). i am bothered by the lack of silence at most Masses.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1342383901' post='2455882']
Please... don't even get me started.

I'll just hit at what you obviously don't understand. No, the Mass is not a celebration. The Mass is a [i]sacrifice [/i]- the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. The[i] liturgy[/i] can be joyful (doesn't mean drums - not by a long shot), but there's a reason that at the most crucial point in the Mass, no music is allowed. That point in the Mass should be somber.

Feast days are days of celebration. Major feasts, such as the holy days of obligation, are meant for celebration. The chosen music for the liturgy present on those days should reflect the meaning of the feasts (ie, most of those should be joyful music), but they should also be [i]reverent [/i](which is something that drums will never be capable of in this country - no matter what you or anyone else thinks).
[/quote]

What if I said that the Mass is a wedding feast?

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1342387258' post='2455892']
hahaha. I was being facetious.
[/quote]

Ah - didn't pick up on that. I think I was in a bad mood when I came on earlier. Sorry for that.

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1342389701' post='2455901']
What if I said that the Mass is a wedding feast?
[/quote]

I'm not enough of a theology buff to agree or disagree.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1342388088' post='2455898']
tbh....i am not usually bothered by the music at Mass (contemporary or traditional). i am bothered by the lack of silence at most Masses.
[/quote]

This times a billion - thanks - I think I needed to hear (or read) someone else say that.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1342341181' post='2455783']
...
However...we want our children growing up knowing that SUNDAY is the Holy Day, and so attend Mass on Sunday. But we also don't want them thinking that sort of liturgical music is normal or ok (nor do we want them attending the "children's liturgy" where they take the kids away during the Liturgy of the Word, another part of the Sunday Masses here)....

[/quote]

Attend the Mass done the most proper. It will install the best disposition to Mass. Attending the vigil is legit, and I wouldn't worry about it being on technically Saturday. The most important thing you are already doing is teaching them about keeping the Lord's Day holy, and you are fulfilling this by going to the vigil.....so don't worry.



[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1342381819' post='2455875']
It's a "Jesus Camp" one, believe me. I personally don't like "contemporary Masses" but this one definitely takes it too far. And it's not applause clapping, it's clapping to the music!
[/quote]

Clapping to the music creates a campy atmosphere that is contrary to the intentions of the Mass.

Clapping, drums, percussion, etc......not conducive to the Mass.

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1342379292' post='2455855']
.....
But what [i]does[/i] the Church actually say? Does It say "though shalt not have a band at Mass?" Does it say, "though shalt not be joyful at Mass"? If so, then fine. No joy, no drums, and no "New Evangelization".

Your absolutely right that there should not be applause at Mass, but there are different ways of clapping other than applause.. When a Mass ends at a Youth Conference the place is usually alive with a joyful energy. We clap along with the music because we are happy, and we are [i]celebrating[/i][i]. [/i]Isn't that what Mass is? A celebration?

Don't get me wrong though, I would never tolerate a "kum-ba-ya" attitude in Mass. But there is a difference between a Contemporary Mass, and "Jesus Camp".
....
[/quote]

The Church does actually say stuff. Although it is a false dilemma to say "no joy, no drums, and no New Evangelization." To argue such is to miss the point of Mass.

Clapping creates a campy atmosphere instead of a sacred atmosphere.

Below are some excerpts on music and the liturgy which should help clarify what is intended by the Church, and what is not.

Since the main point of this thread is concerning a question on the relative importance of when to fulfill the Sunday obligation vs. attending a Mass based on adherence to traditional norms, perhaps a debate on these quoted documents best take place in another thread.

I only cite portions of these documents to help answer your question and give a sense of what music should be at Mass.



[spoiler]

[quote]
[center][size="4"][color="#663300"][font='Times New Roman']SECOND VATICAN ECUMENICAL COUNCIL[/font][/color][/size]
[b][url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html"][size="4"][color="#663300"]MUSICAM SACRAM [/color][/size][/url]
[size="3"][color="#663300"][i]INSTRUCTION ON MUSIC IN THE LITURGY[/i][/color][/size][/b][/center]

[color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
4. It is to be hoped that pastors of souls, musicians and the faithful will gladly accept these norms and put them into practice, uniting their efforts to attain the true purpose of sacred music, "which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful."[1][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
(a) By sacred music is understood that which, being created for the celebration of divine worship, is endowed with a certain holy sincerity of form.[2][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
(b) The following come under the title of sacred music here: Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony in its various forms both ancient and modern, sacred music for the organ and other approved instruments, and sacred popular music, be it liturgical or simply religious.[3][/size][/font][/color]


[b]IV. The Language To Be Used In Sung Liturgical Celebrations, And On Preserving The Heritage Of Sacred Music[/b][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[u]47. According to the [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html"]Constitution on the Liturgy[/url], "the use of the Latin language, with due respect to particular law, is to be preserved in the Latin rites."[30][/u][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
However, since "the use of the vernacular may frequently be of great advantage to the people"[31] "it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used. Its decrees have to be approved, that is, confirmed by the Apostolic See."[32][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
In observing these norms exactly, one will therefore employ that form of participation which best matches the capabilities of each congregation.[/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
Pastors of souls should take care that besides the vernacular "the faithful may also be able to say or sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."[33][/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
52. In order to preserve the heritage of sacred music and genuinely promote the new forms of sacred singing, "great importance is to be attached to the teaching and practice of music in seminaries, in the novitiates and houses of study of religious of both sexes, and also in other Catholic institutes and schools," especially in those higher institutes intended specially for this.[37] Above all, the study and practice of Gregorian chant is to be promoted, because, with its special characteristics, it is a basis of great importance for the development of sacred music.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[b]VI. Sacred Instrumental Music[/b][/size][/font][/color]
62. Musical instruments can be very useful in sacred celebrations, whether they accompany the singing or whether they are played as solo instruments.
[u]"The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.[/u]
"The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful."[43]

63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.[44]
Any musical instrument permitted in divine worship should be used in such a way that it meets the needs of the liturgical celebration, and is in the interests both of the beauty of worship and the edification of the faithful.

64. The use of musical instruments to accompany the singing can act as a support to the voices, render participation easier, and achieve a deeper union in the assembly. However, their sound should not so overwhelm the voices that it is difficult to make out the text; and when some part is proclaimed aloud by the priest or a minister by virtue of his role, they should be silent.

65. In sung or said Masses, the organ, or other instrument legitimately admitted, can be used to accompany the singing of the choir and the people; it can also be played solo at the beginning before the priest reaches the altar, at the Offertory, at the Communion, and at the end of Mass.
The same rule, with the necessary adaptations, can be applied to other sacred celebrations.

66. The playing of these same instruments as solos is not permitted in Advent, Lent, during the Sacred Triduum and in the Offices and Masses of the Dead.

67. It is highly desirable that organists and other musicians should not only possess the skill to play properly the instrument entrusted to them: they should also enter into and be thoroughly aware of the spirit of the liturgy, so that even when playing ex tempore, they will enrich the sacred celebration according to the true nature of each of its parts, and encourage the participation of the faithful.[46]


[/quote]

[indent]
[b][i][size="+3"][color="#02423b"]Tra le Sollecitudini[/color][/size][/i][/b]
[size="+1"][color="#000000"]Instruction on Sacred Music[/color][/size]
[b][size="+1"][color="#02423b"]Pope Pius X[/color][/size][/b][/indent][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[b][i]Motu Proprio promulgated on November 22, 1903[/i][/b][/size][/font][/color]

[color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"][b]VI. Organ and instruments[/b]
15. Although the music proper to the Church is purely vocal music, music with the accompaniment of the organ is also permitted. In some special cases, within due limits and with proper safeguards, other instruments may be allowed, but never without the special permission of the Ordinary, according to prescriptions of the [i]Caeremoniale Episcoporum[/i].[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]16. As the singing should always have the principal place, the organ or other instruments should merely sustain and never oppress it.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]17. It is not permitted to have the chant preceded by long preludes or to interrupt it with intermezzo pieces.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]18. The sound of the organ as an accompaniment to the chant in preludes, interludes, and the like must be not only governed by the special nature of the instrument, but must participate in all the qualities proper to sacred music as above enumerated.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]19. The employment of the piano is forbidden in church, as is also that of noisy or frivolous instruments such as drums, cymbals, bells and the like.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][color=#000000][font='Times New Roman'][size=1]
[font="Times New Roman, Times, Arial"][size="3"]21. In processions outside the church the Ordinary may give permission for a band, provided no profane pieces be executed. It would be desirable in such cases that the band confine itself to accompanying some spiritual canticle sung in Latin or in the vernacular by the singers and the pious associations which take part in the procession.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/color]




[/spoiler]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1342382130' post='2455876']
I guess my point was:

Which do you consider more important... TYPE of liturgy ("contemporary" vs more "traditional") or DAY of liturgy (Sat Vigil vs. Sun morning)
[/quote]

Type......always. Vigil Mass is solidly legit..... contemporary turns the sacred Mass into a non-Catholic campfire sing-along.


[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1342383167' post='2455879']
i consider mass important and Jesus is present in both masses. no matter if there is clapping or contempary music Jesus is still present. Never forgot no matter how much you disagree with some of the stuff at certain masses, the mass is about Jesus and he is present.
[/quote]

So we can do whatever we want? And we should ignore those who turn the sacred liturgy into a campfire performance?

Or are we bound to worship as defined by Holy Mother Church?

The Mass is about Jesus if you follow the guidelines set forth by His Church. The Mass is about yourself if you just do what you want without regard to the due direction of the Magesterium.

[havok579257]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1342409053' post='2455961']

So we can do whatever we want? And we should ignore those who turn the sacred liturgy into a campfire performance?

Or are we bound to worship as defined by Holy Mother Church?

The Mass is about Jesus if you follow the guidelines set forth by His Church. The Mass is about yourself if you just do what you want without regard to the due direction of the Magesterium.
[/quote]

did i say we could do whatever we want?

no, the mass is not just about Jesus is some situations. the mass is about Jesus if it is a valid mass. Even if it is an illict mass, its still a valid mass and at a valid mass Jesus is presnt in the most blessed sacrement.

Don;t ever forget, that even though the mass may be illicit, Jesus is still there. To dismiss a valid mass is to dismiss Jesus because he is there. YOu may not agree with the way the mass is and who knows, Jesus may not either, although at the end of the day the mass is valid and Jesus is there. Something we should never forget when we are trashing on things about this mass or that mass. That by trashing on them, you are trashing on Jesus's mass because he present in the mass.

Trashing on a mass is not the same as honest critism of a mass. People do a lot more trashing than the other.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1342379292' post='2455855']
But what [i]does[/i] the Church actually say? Does It say "though shalt not have a band at Mass?"

[/quote]
Actually...
[quote]20. It is strictly forbidden to have bands play in church, and only in special cases with the consent of the Ordinary will it be permissible to admit wind instruments, limited in number, judiciously used, and proportioned to the size of the placeprovided the composition and accompaniment be written in grave and suitable style, and conform in all respects to that proper to the organ.

[/quote]
http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1342382749' post='2455877']
well then don't go to the latin mass because they sure don't speak american for most of the mass.
[/quote]

havok, I was jokin' bro. Maybe not a very good joke, but the least you can do is gimme a pity laugh.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1342411704' post='2455972']

did i say we could do whatever we want?

no, the mass is not just about Jesus is some situations. the mass is about Jesus if it is a valid mass. Even if it is an illict mass, its still a valid mass and at a valid mass Jesus is presnt in the most blessed sacrement.

Don;t ever forget, that even though the mass may be illicit, Jesus is still there. To dismiss a valid mass is to dismiss Jesus because he is there. YOu may not agree with the way the mass is and who knows, Jesus may not either, although at the end of the day the mass is valid and Jesus is there. Something we should never forget when we are trashing on things about this mass or that mass. That by trashing on them, you are trashing on Jesus's mass because he present in the mass.

Trashing on a mass is not the same as honest critism of a mass. People do a lot more trashing than the other.
[/quote]

I apologize for presuming about doing whatever one wants. However, your comment did appear to come across as such.

I would like to point out that I don't deny the validity of such Masses and I am not trashing Christ by pointing out the errors of said Masses. I am merely being an honest faithful critic.



If my criticism is found to be contrary to the Church, I submit all my statements to the correction of the Church.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1342411704' post='2455972']

did i say we could do whatever we want?

no, the mass is not just about Jesus is some situations. the mass is about Jesus if it is a valid mass. Even if it is an illict mass, its still a valid mass and at a valid mass Jesus is presnt in the most blessed sacrement.

Don;t ever forget, that even though the mass may be illicit, Jesus is still there. To dismiss a valid mass is to dismiss Jesus because he is there. YOu may not agree with the way the mass is and who knows, Jesus may not either, although at the end of the day the mass is valid and Jesus is there. Something we should never forget when we are trashing on things about this mass or that mass. That by trashing on them, you are trashing on Jesus's mass because he present in the mass.

Trashing on a mass is not the same as honest critism of a mass. People do a lot more trashing than the other.
[/quote]
I don't like that argument. It's like saying, man, that sure is a fleabag hotel, but since my mother is staying there, I can't say anything bad about it. If I said that it was a nasty dump, it would be like saying my mom is a nasty dump.