Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 (edited) Pax domini bretheren sympathiesers and others... I haven't posted this in the transmundane lane because there is no catholic theology behind my thoughts and i didn't post this in the debate table because you can debate what i am about to say but i just wanted to put this idea out there anyway,if heretical or schizmatic please don't refrain on letting me know if thats what you think or believe. Ok, i have had this thought before but never released it to anyone else, i will start with this point. If hell is an absence of GOD would not those whom hate GOD and wan't nothing to do with GOD would they not be happy in hell if hell is an absence of GOD and his presence is compulsary. Next point is what if hell is GODS present love without a choice which the devil and it's legions will hate because there choice to recieve the love of GOD is removed. My next thought is on heaven relating to scripture. Jesus said there are many rooms in my fathers house. To me that hints at exploration and growth in heaven and choice between where to go and where to stay, and jesus also says i am the vine and you are the branches, is this growth and pruning a heavenly law that only applies to earth, and if so why? Though where told there is no sin in heaven do we relate this that we only learn from our mistakes ie: desolation. If consolation truely exists and is of GOD does this insist that we can still grow also in heaven with the consolation of GOD. God bless. JESUS is LORD. God is good,God is love,God saves. JC " there are many rooms in my fathers house." St mary mackillop of the cross. " Be eager in your desires,but patient in there accomplishment." St francessca cabrini. "a missionary must be fearless,he that dares nothing recieves nothing." Edited July 12, 2012 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Of course as per usuall, this is not gospel and shouldn't be taken any to seriously. And now i re-think about it than maybe GOD loves those people on earth whom don't love him and they recieve a little bit of that anyway without realising it. But ye old satan and demons, what of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 You have very interesting thoughts. I don't have much awnsers for you, but I can add my 5 cents (it has to be a nickel for me, 'cause I'm from Canada, and we don't make pennies anymore). I do share perplexion with the growth aspect in heaven. As far as I know, once you enter eternity, there is no time, there is no change and thus you cannot 'grow'. I believe this is theologically sound. However, the fact that we can no longer 'grow', in my opinion, would be a loss to our human condition. We can no longer improve on ourselves. I'm not quite sure what to make of it myself to be honest, and it would take a wiser man than me to bring forward a reply to this enigma. I remember my father telling me once that on earth, you have the main purpose of winning your heaven. Doesn't matter how well yiou earn it, as long as you earn it. Once you've earned it, you have all eternity to get closer to God. It's a well intended thought, but I believe my father was in error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie12 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 This is a rather long video but I found it interesting: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KXLUwoiqjmk also, my thoughts about heaven are that in heaven you do things but in erything you do, you praise God! Also about hell, you should check out Fr. Robert Barron's video on youtube about hell. Very I teresting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) No real thoughts about Heaven, except that to see Jesus, His mother and St Joseph (mentioning three only) would be mind boggling! From what St Paul says about Heaven, in my most wildest dreams I could not even approximate it. It boggles my mind that the body will be resurrected on the last day and we will be body and soul in Heaven. What is "The Beatific Vision".........my mind, my imagination, just wont go there. No real thoughts about hell, except I sure dont want to go there. If I reflect on the down times in my life and then reflect that all of that still is not hell per se, is enough for me to have a most ardent desire to avoid the joint and its appalling original occupants. Re "there are many mansions in My Father's House". St Paul apparent was enraptured (mystical ecstacy) to the third heaven and I guess I think of it as being different levels of perfection and in Heaven, that level of perfection that fits one perfectly awaits and one will long for nothing less nor more, since it is perfection for each individual. There will be no ego problems nor envies nor jealousies - no problems at all - in Heaven. The Kingdom of God is in our midst and within. I am now reading a book about Angela of Foligno "Passionate Mystic of The Double Abyss" Paul Lachance OFM - and the mystics have experiences that are amazing in their absolute transcending of ordinary everyday human existence, these experiences take us to places most all of us will only ever read about - but then also there is tremendous suffering that leaves one with a feeling "I have never suffered at all" ( and for me: tired and exhausted just reading about it). How Angela could experience the heights that she did and then the depths that she did in the one experience is apparently unique in mysticism - or what we do know about it from our mystics. She is not as yet canonized and may not be, hard to tell. There seems to be problems with what is written of her experiences and the reporting of what she said at times - by her contemporaries (1300's) and largely her spiritual director. She was born into troubled times historically in most every way. What does really strike me about our mystics is their passionate Love of God and neighbour (which drove Angela and some other mystics to some extremes) - and Jesus has told us that Love of God and neighbour is what it is all about. There will be no growth in Heaven for we will be perfected and what this means in terms of human experience, I have no idea. All we have ever experienced is growth and change. Heaven is beyond all human experience to date, while it is the fulfillment of our humanity. We do tend to think that our human experience here on earth is what being human is all about. But 'eternity awaits' and we are in eternity now since our souls are eternal and on the Last Day our bodies will be reunited with our eternal soul . We are already in an eternal now (Eternal Now: "In Him we live and move and have our being"), although our human experience is of time, which is the measurement of change. And this phase of eternity now (after Adam and Eve) is a process of growth to decay in our own bodies and in creation. The Incarnation and the life and death of Jesus, His resurrection, is a stupendous event breaking right into creation ("Fear not, I have overcome Satan") and returning it in Him in the Power of The Holy Spirit to His Father! This same Spirit He sends to His Church at Pentecost. Death is a moving into a completely new phase of eternity and our eternal now and a fulfillment of our humanity finally accomplished on the Last Day. Hence what we experience here and now on earth is not the sum total of our humanity. My tuppence! Edited July 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) "Hatred of God". For me, hatred is the complete absence of love and certainly not Love - hence no happiness. It is a well known human experience that when a person hates, the object of their hatred does not suffer as much as the person that hates. It must be a dreadful state in which to exist. I have never hated anyone. Disliked, I have. Hatred for me is to wish nothing but evil and suffering on another. Hence there is no happiness or joy whatsoever in Satan or its servants. Satan can only express its hatred of God through what it inflicts on who and what God Loves. Following on, I guess, therefore hell is a place completely lacking in any sort of joy or happiness and where all hate - and each other and wish and effect evil and suffering on each other. How on earth can a person or creature hate God defeats me. But it is so. It is a shocking and mind boggling thing to think about. Edited July 16, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Decided to Google "Angela of Foligno" and came up with the following from Catholic Culture and an address by Pope Benedict on Angela. Also I got my dates wrong (never good with dates!) and she was born in the mid 1200's. Pope Benedict gives a really balanced address about her, and points out her long journey and its stages to her more mystical types of experiences (the book I am reading does the same along with her spiritual advice in a separate section): [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9448"]http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=9448[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1342064700' post='2454835'] there is no catholic theology behind my thoughts and i didn't post this in the debate table because you can debate what i am about to say but i just wanted to put this idea out there anyway,if heretical or schizmatic please don't refrain on letting me know if thats what you think or believe. [/quote] Never be afraid to want to learn. Jesus came to earth to teach us. Your willingness to learn about him is witness to your love of him. Putting forward your thoughts for the comment of others is not heretical. Heresy is defiantly teaching untruths and knowing you are going against the Church. Popes, saints and theologians give their personal views too but note that they are not infallible. [quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1342380008' post='2455861'] ! Also about hell, you should check out Fr. Robert Barron's video on youtube about hell. Very I teresting. [/quote] I was going to suggest that. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4"]Link here[/url] Also Pope JP2 [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2heavn.htm"]Heaven Hell and Purgatory[/url] are states of existence not places. Edited July 16, 2012 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 St Anslem said that theology is Faith seeking understanding. One puts forth what one can understand (rightly or wrongly)questions etc. to date and then seeks affirmation or correction, questions answered, on various matters relating to Faith. In affirmation (or questions answered) one is grateful providing the affirmation/answer(s) are sound reliable Catholic sources and in sound correction, one corrects one's concepts. Heresy etc. is to cling and relentlessly to beliefs that are not Catholic doctrine and dogma - and also see [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8063"]"Conscience and The [b]Obedience of Faith[/b]" ex Catholic Culture[/url] . Seeking to understand insofar as one may be able is a virtue depending on motivation of course. Asking questions and putting forward one's understanding to date is not heresy. Blessed Angela of Foligno had things to say about seeking and finding information and motivation behind it in her spiritual instructions. If we are going to evangelize, we need to be able to explain why we believe what we believe - and to my thinking ( fallible,faulted ) we need a whole theology of evanglization within spiritual theology if we are going to be effective in evangelizing. Fr Robert Barron (always spot on to me - and he is also an author of some excellent books) in the link given in previous posts and in a quite short video explains and connects our God Who [b]Is[/b] Love and hell, and also our free will, in very simple terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbTherese Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1342065311' post='2454842'] Of course as per usuall, this is not gospel and shouldn't be taken any to seriously. And now i re-think about it than maybe GOD loves those people on earth whom don't love him and they recieve a little bit of that anyway without realising it. But ye old satan and demons, what of them? [/quote] Tab'le, this short video from [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGUaM0gZLGk"]Jimmy Atkins - Apologist[/url] of Catholic Answers may answer your question "Does God love Lucifer?". And Atkins states that it is a good question! Having seen the video above, my thoughts are that God loves all that He created. He does not however love the evil that the free will of His creatures may choose. We know that freely choosing (an act of free will) serious moral wrong and refusing repentance has a consequence intrinsic to that chosen evil. That consequence is hell. It is not something that God inflicts on a person 'after the act' as it were. Judgement will be God's Insight into our hearts and minds and where our choices have in fact been - in Heaven (good) or in hell (grave evil). With grave and serious moral wrong freely chosen, the creature is [u]at once also[/u] choosing complete separation from God i.e. hell. We know this as mortal sin. The Lord offers us His Loving Mercy which is absolutely total and infinite (no matter how serious our offence) and we have the free will to choose or reject it. My possibly faulted presumption only - is that Satan and the fallen angels were somehow offered the choice and out of complete pride, rejected it. God has given us free will and thus the ability to choose between good and evil in complete freedom i.e. free will. If we did not have free will we would not have the ability to choose to love or reject Love of God and neighbour. We would be compelled to love - no choice but to do so. God has revealed to us the existence of Heaven and of hell and the 'inbuilt' consequences of our choices. Edited July 17, 2012 by BarbaraTherese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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