More Venom Or Just Me?

[Theresita Nerita]

It does feel like rhetoric is getting more venomous. Or probably, it's just becoming more acceptable to express anti-Catholic sentiment openly. I'd actually say it's getting [b]cool[/b] to hate the Capital-C Church. I've had several experiences recently where people expressed anti-Catholic sentiment and then grinned at me or said "sorry, TN!" with a grin. Even in the workplace, and in front of others. And I don't think it even comes from deep-seated hatred on their part, I think it comes from a desire to prove they're with-it and NY Timesy enough to hate the Catholic Church.

As for persecution, I would argue that history shows that when hatred goes from being a personal failing to being fashionable, actual legal persecution isn't a ridiculous forecast.

I'm thankful it hasn't happened here yet and I pray it never does.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Theresita Nerita

[BG45]

Definitely fashionable in my workplace to go after the Church. When John Jay came out with its USCCB funded study on sex abuse in the Church that said the Catholic Church, post abuse reforms, is safer for kids than a school, the general reaction was, "Yeah, I'd say what the sex offenders wanted me to say also for the kind of money they gave John Jay for that study." And "Any man who seeks to lead a life alone is obviously mentally ill."

[Luigi]

In June, I was in Paua, Italy. I ran into a couple of women from San Francisco - lesbians, both old enough to have gray hair, with enough money in their pockets to travel the world, which sort of implies good educations - looking at religious artwork that they completely didn't understand. My friend got to talking to one, explaining the artwork. I wound up talking to the other. I mentioned something about the Church and she asked if I was Catholic. I said a was as Catholic as they come.

A little later in the conversation, I was talking about a problem with the Italian government - it doesn't want to recognize Italian Sign Language as separate from spoken Italian, so nobody can study it in schools, so there's a shortage of interpreters, so the Deaf community is upset.. and she says, "Well, there's your pope!"

I said, "Uhhhhhh...how do you mean? The pope has nothing to do with it." She said, "Well he runs the Italian government, doesn't he?" I said, "Not for the last 150 years he hasn't!"

A well educated person - I assume - who knows nothing about the situation but is willing to blame the pope right off the bat.

Does that count as persecution? She wasn't actively seeking out Catholics to beat up or torture, but she certainly has a negative opinion of Catholics. God knows what kinds of misinformation she spreads based on her complete ignorance. God knows what it might lead to, either, on topics more relevant to the practice of the Catholic faith.

[Ed Normile]

I do not agree with the " we opened ourselves up to it because of x,y,z " The deceiver is now and has always been at work against the church. People these days, as during different times in past history are more open to evil influence, sure there is some of it within the ranks of the church, as there has always been, was it not a disciple that betrayed Christ? Its true the internet has opened more to be free to attack anonymously, and they can gather a much larger audience than someone shouting out in the streets. The church is made up of men and there will always be good men and bad men, thats a trait of the freewil that God gave us. The internet can also have a positive moral effect on people too, its all how you decide to use it.

Pray for the church.

ed

Edited July 12, 2012 by Ed Normile

[eagle_eye222001]

Saying
[quote]America is mostly made of Christians[/quote]
is a bit misleading.

The statement is quite accurate in that a majority of Americans believe in the divinity of Christ.

The statement is quite misleading in that Christian Americans agree on many moral issues.
[list]
[*]Prior to 1930, all of Christianity was against contraception. Now, Catholics alone are against it (with a very few minor exceptions).
[/list]
[list]
[*]Back probably 60 years+ or so, all Christianity believe same sex attraction was a disorder, and that acting on it was a sin. Now days, it is easy to find a Christian who sympathizes with the so-called "gay rights" movement.
[/list]
[list]
[*]Back in the day, all Christianity believed abortion was a sin. Now, many Christians believe it is either not a sin, or a complicated gray situation that can be justified by rape, incest, etc.
[/list]

[list]
[*]Using Congress as a sample of the American population, of the baptized Catholics, of what percentage carry out their faith? What percentage sell out their beliefs in office? Of the non Catholic Christians in office, what percentage carry out the traditional morals of Christianity?
[/list]
[list]
[*]Mass attendance has been [url="http://www.gallup.com/poll/117382/church-going-among-catholics-slides-tie-protestants.aspx"]decreasing since 1955.[/url]
[/list]

America may well be a Christian nation in the sense that a majority believe in the divinity of Christ. But that's about it.

It seems like the persecution of today is growing because of the increasing hostile attitude towards the true faith and the fact that the Christian label is becoming more and more meaningless.

However with the HSS mandate, the possibility of real persecution is very real and very imminent. Nearly any Catholic who attempts to articulate the meaning of marriage is often ignored and labeled a "homophobe." Any Catholic who attempts to articulate what they believe is often laughed at and ridiculed. Richard Dawkins in fact is leading a [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/dawkins-calls-for-mockery-of-catholics-at-reason-rally/"]crusade of mockery[/url] against Catholics. This is persecution of ideas, and not knowledgeable debating of ideas.

___________________


Are Catholics in America being persecuted?



[b] [background=white]Definition of [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecuted"][i]PERSECUTE[/i][/url][/background][/b]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
[color=#7A7A7A][i]
transitive verb[/i][/color]
[b]
1[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; [i]specifically[/i] [b]:[/b] to cause to suffer because of belief[/indent]
[b]
2[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to annoy with [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persistent"]persistent[/url] or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) [b]:[/b] [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pester"]pester[/url][/indent][/size][/font][/color]


Hell yeah. Are Catholics being persecuted as bad as Christians in China, North Korea, or Egypt? No, but persecution is definitely on the rise in America.

[4588686]

[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1342057854' post='2454803']

Does that count as persecution? [/quote]

Nope. It's not even almost a little bit close to persecution.

[quote] She wasn't actively seeking out Catholics to beat up or torture,[/quote]

Right. What you are describing is persecution. As opposed to being mistaken about the structure of thr Italian government. Which is not persecution.
[quote] but she certainly has a negative opinion of Catholics. God knows what kinds of misinformation she spreads based on her complete ignorance. God knows what it might lead to, either, on topics more relevant to the practice of the Catholic faith.
[/quote]

yeah. That freedom of speech and thought thing sure is a beesh, huh?

[4588686]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1342073258' post='2454874']
Saying

Are Catholics in America being persecuted?



[b] [background=white]Definition of [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecuted"][i]PERSECUTE[/i][/url][/background][/b]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
[color=#7A7A7A][i]
transitive verb[/i][/color]
[b]
1[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; [i]specifically[/i] [b]:[/b] to cause to suffer because of belief[/indent]
[b]
2[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to annoy with [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persistent"]persistent[/url] or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) [b]:[/b] [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pester"]pester[/url][/indent][/size][/font][/color]


Hell yeah. Are Catholics being persecuted as bad as Christians in China, North Korea, or Egypt? No, but persecution is definitely on the rise in America.
[/quote]

You should have some cheese with that whine.



BAAAAAAZZZZIIIINNNNGGGGG!

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1342073258' post='2454874']
Saying

Are Catholics in America being persecuted?



[b] [background=white]Definition of [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecuted"][i]PERSECUTE[/i][/url][/background][/b]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
[color=#7A7A7A][i]
transitive verb[/i][/color]
[b]
1[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; [i]specifically[/i] [b]:[/b] to cause to suffer because of belief[/indent]
[b]
2[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to annoy with [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persistent"]persistent[/url] or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) [b]:[/b] [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pester"]pester[/url][/indent][/size][/font][/color]


Hell yeah. Are Catholics being persecuted as bad as Christians in China, North Korea, or Egypt? No, but persecution is definitely on the rise in America.
[/quote]

You should have some cheese with that whine.



BAAAAAAZZZZIIIINNNNGGGGG!

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1342073258' post='2454874']
Saying

Are Catholics in America being persecuted?



[b] [background=white]Definition of [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persecuted"][i]PERSECUTE[/i][/url][/background][/b]
[color=#000000][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=3]
[color=#7A7A7A][i]
transitive verb[/i][/color]
[b]
1[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; [i]specifically[/i] [b]:[/b] to cause to suffer because of belief[/indent]
[b]
2[/b]
[indent=1][b]:[/b] to annoy with [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/persistent"]persistent[/url] or urgent approaches (as attacks, pleas, or importunities) [b]:[/b] [url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pester"]pester[/url][/indent][/size][/font][/color]


Hell yeah. Are Catholics being persecuted as bad as Christians in China, North Korea, or Egypt? No, but persecution is definitely on the rise in America.
[/quote]

You should have some cheese with that whine.



BAAAAAAZZZZIIIINNNNGGGGG!

[Ash Wednesday]

It's not just you, Father Pontifex.

In some respects, yes, our scandals will invite some of the hostility. A church with "hard line" teachings is going to be judged more harshly if we fail to live up to them.

But I've noticed over time as people have become more "progressive" in attitudes, more the Church and her teachings are going to be viewed as backwards or holding society back if they aren't "playing along." When I was a teenager, the idea of supporting gay marriage was a fringe movement consisting of just a handful of people. But now, if you don't support it, you are viewed as archaic, hateful, bigoted and ignorant.

I live in the UK and the attitudes towards the Church or religion in general is VERY hostile. I hear it practically every day. It's not just a phenomenon in Europe, it's common in many other developed countries and is just going to keep increasing. People spout about how much the idea of God or church is total garbage and place joy in material things but at the same time wonder why they're so miserable.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Ash Wednesday

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1341944842' post='2454391']
Too, it's an election year. That always tends to make things worse.

We miss you, Father. Keep praying for us ... we are praying for you.
[/quote]

In addition to it being an election year, I imagine the health mandate debate is also having a polarizing effect as well. My access to U.S. media is limited but that seems to be the case from discussions I've been reading.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1342078341' post='2454891']
...
You should have some cheese with that whine.

BAAAAAAZZZZIIIINNNNGGGGG!
[/quote]



You could do something intelligent like explain why my point is wrong.....(ie...why my facts are wrong, or why my conclusion is wrong).


That must be too much to ask. Or stick with grade school tactics of jokes.....what you disagree with, you just mock.

[cmotherofpirl]

I assume Father posted it here for a civil discussion. IF you want to debate persecution go to debate,

[Pontifex]

Really, I just wanted to discuss what I have perceived as a sharp increase in hatred toward the Church. I can remember when Cardinal Ratzinger gave his inspirational talk to the college of cardinals before voting for a new pope. He stated that the biggest problem we are facing is the plague of relativism, one that has swept across Europe and is steadily affecting the western world as well. Of couse they elected Ratzinger. I really think that plague is the issue. People are becoming stronger enemies to the idea of absolute truth.

Fr. Pontifex

[cmotherofpirl]

People don't believe in absolute truth anymore, its whatever appeals to them. Emotion and sentiment have replaced logic and reason.

[Pontifex]

Yes, and as we know it is a very dangerous place to situate yourself in the world. Love and Truth make demands that draw us out of ourselves and lead us to sacrifice. Emotion and sentiment are only helpful when associated with truth.