Ed Normile Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Ok, having read all the posts and especially the love references, again I ask what would St. John the Baptist have done. I am sure the "Holy Spirit knew how to channel his grace" even back then, seemed it was channeled right through St John the baptist. I still say that the love the sinner, hate the sin thing is a modern invention that does more harm than good. Think of all the saints who stood up to sinners and abuses in both the laity and the church hiearchy throughout the years, did they hate the sinner, or did they see a need that had to be addressed, we change nothing by being wishy washy in our actions. perhaps when we recognise the sin that is the Holy Spirit prompting us to action, but then we think gotta love that sinner so we do nothing, we ignore the call. If we point out a sin or an abuse we may not change it immediatley but its at least been brought into the light of truth where it may garner enough attention to affect a change at some point. Although its easier to just love the sinner and allow them to continue down their path, its not our souls that are being affected, or is it? ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) Gee, abstinence and NFP don't require a long drive to a fully-stocked clinic. Plus, it's more environmentally friendly (if you've seen the opening to the pilot episode of "Torchwood" or follow the recent studies of the high levels of pahrmaceuticals in the water supply), which should be something that the left-of-center crowd should appreciate. Edited July 10, 2012 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgnatiusofLoyola Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 My first thought was whether we want more Bill Gates's in this world. PLEASE don't take this post as a serious statement on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 [quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1341897144' post='2454263'] Ok, having read all the posts and especially the love references, again I ask what would St. John the Baptist have done. I am sure the "Holy Spirit knew how to channel his grace" even back then, seemed it was channeled right through St John the baptist. I still say that the love the sinner, hate the sin thing is a modern invention that does more harm than good. Think of all the saints who stood up to sinners and abuses in both the laity and the church hierarchy throughout the years, did they hate the sinner, or did they see a need that had to be addressed, we change nothing by being wishy washy in our actions. perhaps when we recognize the sin that is the Holy Spirit prompting us to action, but then we think gotta love that sinner so we do nothing, we ignore the call. If we point out a sin or an abuse we may not change it immediately but its at least been brought into the light of truth where it may garner enough attention to affect a change at some point. Although its easier to just love the sinner and allow them to continue down their path, its not our souls that are being affected, or is it? ed [/quote] Ok, well I like how we are all assuming how it went back in St. John's day, which I will admit I did as well earlier in this thread. Concerning the 'modern invention' of loving the sinner, hating the sin, the fact is to notice the nuance. It is to love the person, but recognize the behavior that is sinful, which can be addressed in a more honest form by recognizing the other as a human person. The idea that it is 'wishy washy' is total poppypickle, because it doesn't seem to match up to whatever the idea of orthodoxy you may have. The role of a Catholic is to defend the Church, yes to a point, but more importantly it is to evangelize others and bring them into a more fulfilled, and loving relationship with the Lord. I think, that's the more important one. God can take care of the Church, as He has since the beginning of time. I think it's easier to love a thing, (yes I am calling the Church a thing), rather than engaging and trying to love people despite their flaws and errors. Things don't let us down. Things don't change. Yet, what makes humanity beautiful is that people can prove us wrong, people can change and people can fall. As to your last question, I would say yes maybe to a point, but more so no. If our eyes and wills are placed upon God then I think we will be ok in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 tie her to the comfy chair and make her use windows me for everything. no reboots allowed. for eternity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Can one be excommunicated for ideas? I mean...actions, yes. I realize that if you commit certain sins, usually publicly, and do not repent, there are some consequences. But if one is preaching heresy, isn't the Church's usual response to declare the person a heretic/anathema, [i]not[/i] to excommunicate them? Anyway, I agree it's up to her bishop to decide something like that, and up to her confessor to work on the state of her soul. I'm not going to pass such judgements based on a newsreport, knowing how easy it is for such things to be distorted by the media. Doesn't mean I think she's right, of course, and if I ever meet her, I might even say something about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Also...there is a real problem that needs to be addressed in the Third World, and it has everything to do with the treatment and abuse of women. There are way too many men in the world who don't think that marriage means what the Church says it means. (Not saying women are angels, either, but one problem at a time.) Is contraception (and abortion) the answer? No, of course not! But if a woman lives in a little hut in a garbage dump and has a husband who doesn't respect 'not right now'...how are we surprised if she thinks contraception will be a good way to help her raise the children she has already? In other words...I don't think Melinda Gates misdiagnosed the problem (entirely). I think she's offering a solution that is quick, easy...and wrong. There's a much better solution out there, but it involves changing society and making human beings take responsibility for their actions. It's free - but never popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amory Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1341946201' post='2454400'] Can one be excommunicated for ideas? I mean...actions, yes. I realize that if you commit certain sins, usually publicly, and do not repent, there are some consequences. But if one is preaching heresy, isn't the Church's usual response to declare the person a heretic/anathema, [i]not[/i] to excommunicate them? [/quote] Catholics who commit heresy are [i]ipso facto[/i] excommunicated according to the current code. Heresy has to be externally manifested (i.e., heretical thoughts alone will only get one excommunicated when accompanied by heretical words). However, since it's a [i]latae sententiae[/i] penalty no declaration from a hierarch (such as the pope or a bishop) is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1341946201' post='2454400'] But if one is preaching heresy,[b] isn't the Church's usual response to declare the person a heretic/anathema, [i]not[/i] to excommunicate them? [/b] [/quote] Anathema is the [b]worst [/b]type of excommunication. [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01455e.htm[/url] [quote][b]Anathema remains a major [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url][/b] which is to be [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454b.htm"]promulgated[/url] with great solemnity. A formula for this [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03538b.htm"]ceremony[/url] was drawn up by Pope Zachary(741-52) in the chapter[i]Debent duodecim sacerdotes,[/i] Causexi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter [i]Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi,[/i] distinguishing three sorts of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url]: minor [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url], formerly incurred by a [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm"]person[/url] holding communication with anyone under the ban of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url]; major [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url], pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and [b]anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly [/b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454b.htm"][b]promulgated[/b][/url][b] by the [/b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm"][b]Pope[/b][/url][b].[/b] In passing this sentence, the pontiffis vested in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01428c.htm"]amice[/url], stole, and a violet cope, wearing his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10404a.htm"]mitre[/url], and assisted by twelve [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm"]priests[/url] clad in their [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14343d.htm"]surplices[/url] and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm"]God[/url] the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm"]saints[/url], in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, [b]we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07402a.htm"]Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord[/url], we separate him from the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14074a.htm"]society[/url] of all [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"]Christians[/url], we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url] in [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm"]Heaven[/url] and on earth, we declare him [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunicated[/url] and anathematized and we judge him condemned to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm"]eternal fire[/url] with [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] and his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm"]angels[/url] and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]; we deliver him to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] to mortify his body, that his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14153a.htm"]soul[/url] may be saved on the day of judgment[/b]." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm"]priests[/url] then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12406a.htm"]priests[/url] and neighbouring [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm"]bishops[/url] of the name of the one who has been [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunicated[/url] and the cause of his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05678a.htm"]excommunication[/url], in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm"]Satan[/url] and his [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04710a.htm"]angels[/url], he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url]. [b]The [/b][url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454b.htm"][b]promulgation[/b][/url][b] of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance [/b], especially if the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm"]Church[/url] adds to it the [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03538b.htm"]ceremony[/url] of the Maranatha.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 All the council's contain "anathema sit" (Let him be anathema) sentances when proclaiming dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 "I'm not going to pass such judgements based on a newsreport, knowing how easy it is for such things to be distorted by the media." The videos are available online. You can hear it straight from the horses mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1341943836' post='2454382'] tie her to the comfy chair and make her use windows me for everything. no reboots allowed. for eternity [/quote] I think wishing her to go to hell is too much, Groo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1341936225' post='2454338'] Ok, well I like how we are all assuming how it went back in St. John's day, which I will admit I did as well earlier in this thread. Concerning the 'modern invention' of loving the sinner, hating the sin, the fact is to notice the nuance. It is to love the person, but recognize the behavior that is sinful, which can be addressed in a more honest form by recognizing the other as a human person. The idea that it is 'wishy washy' is total poppypickle, because it doesn't seem to match up to whatever the idea of orthodoxy you may have. The role of a Catholic is to defend the Church, yes to a point, but more importantly it is to evangelize others and bring them into a more fulfilled, and loving relationship with the Lord. I think, that's the more important one. God can take care of the Church, as He has since the beginning of time. I think it's easier to love a thing, (yes I am calling the Church a thing), rather than engaging and trying to love people despite their flaws and errors. Things don't let us down. Things don't change. Yet, what makes humanity beautiful is that people can prove us wrong, people can change and people can fall. As to your last question, I would say yes maybe to a point, but more so no. If our eyes and wills are placed upon God then I think we will be ok in the end. [/quote] TPO, I beleive I was the only one assuming how it was back in St Johns day, I base that assumption on teh fact He baptized Jesus and was a very holy man. He also recognized a human, the human was a sinner and he showed his love for this human sinner by calling him out on his sin and demanding he repented. What more love of a man could another show than to love his very being, his soul, that gift from God that sets him above the animals and truly makes him almost god-like, at least in the sense of being created in God's image with a soul, but to love him enough as a human and a sinner to try to help him on his way to salvation instead of just saying, I love him but I hate the sin he is engaging in. If I see my child breaking the law, of God or man, and just allow it by not rebuking him am I showing love, or am I pretending to love him by coddling him in his error? As to your last statement, that sounds very protestant to me, you know the whole, Jesus died for me so I am already saved, I do not need to confess or work toward my salvation all I have to do is be reborn. Would God expect us to just cast a blind eye to the sin of another, Jesus rebuked sinners and commanded them to sin no more, he also told his disciples when those of a town would not accept their teaching to shake the dirt of their sandals as they left that town. Do you feel his command to go forth and forgive men their sins meant they were then open to return to their sinful life with no consequences. that would be a tad more wishy-washy than I think the Son of Man could accept. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 [quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1341866000' post='2454065'] I still don't understand why people see abstinence as a huge thorn in their paw. [/quote] Because people really, really like to floopy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 (edited) I have absolutely nothing to contribute to this. Edited July 11, 2012 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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