Jesus' Creed

[ayed]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful



Much thanked are you: Mr.Aloyisus , Mr.Yianni and Mr.Winchester for your valuable times you spent on answering my questions .Thanks to our administrators who cared of and organized our debates and dialogues on this helpful Forum”Phatmass” .

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Mr.Aloyisus !Remember that Jesus did not say that he himself”chose his mother”
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Mr.Yianni!When one provide you with unwanted quotations or not required, it is considered “fallacy”.Fallacy is to divert discussant’s path from the gist of the whole discusstion , unintentionally or intentionally.
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Mr.Winchester! Can you storm a war field without ammunition!How come you give a verse proof and you are out of energy!?I hope you be brimmed with energy next time when discussing with me a new topic.
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Kindly!Be closed this topic .Until another a new one and take some rest, I let you contemplate some verses from the Holy Quran and from your own book:


@What Jesus(Allah’s peace be upon him)will say on the Day of Resurrection:

[color=red]And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say) Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen”"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things[/color](Al-Ma’idah”the Table” 5:116~117)

@@When Jesus commanded a Samaritan woman to worship Allah, the Exalted:

“[color=red]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father[/color](John 4:21 , KJV)


Thank you in advance.

With my best wishes

sahite2004@hotmail.com


Ayed

[Aloysius]

but the Gospel according to Saint John clearly says Jesus is God and without Jesus nothing was made. Saint John was very close to Jesus, and was a God-fearing man. He would not set out to make something up about Jesus which Jesus Himself did not tell him.

furthermore: Saint Paul was a very devout Jew and before his conversion considered Jesus's claims blasphemy (the testimony of his enemies who called Him a blasphemer are proof that Jesus claimed to be God). He would not and could not have invented the doctrine of Jesus's Divinity, it is completely out of charecter of him, a devout Jew of the time.

pAx

[Archangel Raphael]

Hmm...ok here's my sophisticated question. And also it's out of curiousity, so please be honest:

Ayed, what has Allah ever did for you personally?

[yiannii]

[quote]Mr.Yianni!When one provide you with unwanted quotations or not required, it is considered “fallacy”.Fallacy is to divert discussant’s path from the gist of the whole discusstion , unintentionally or intentionally.[/quote]


Salam alaikum Ayed,

I thought that the quotations I provided from the Holy Scripture were touching the topic that was being discussed in this post, i.e. proving that Jesus' Divinity is actually Scriptural. I have many Muslim friends and they try to disprove Jesus' Divinity by saying that it isn't in our Scriptures.

From the quotes I provided it is clear where Christianity gets its teaching in Jesus' Divinity. The Trinity is also implied throughout the Scripture even in the book of Genesis where God referrs to Himself as "us"... "let us" and there are numerous other occasions where God referrs to Himself in a pluralistic form. Sacred Tradition passed down originally from the Apostles who knew Jesus personally, have obviously not disagreed with what is contained in the Scripture.

On a final note, Mohammid teachings on Christianity were based on a heresy that was in circulation around his time. His teachings on Christianity are based on a form of Christianity that was considered incorrect, so therefore it hardly seems like it was inspired by God. Although I respect Islam immencly, and I love our similarities, I don't believe the teachings that Jesus was just a profit.

God bless you Ayed and good on you for believeing in your faith so much that you want to spread your beliefs with others.

Edited June 18, 2004 by yiannii

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='ayed' date='Jun 17 2004, 04:42 PM'] @What Jesus(Allah’s peace be upon him)will say on the Day of Resurrection:

[color=red]And (remember) when Allâh will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allâh?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say) Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it You know what is in my inner­self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All­Knower of all that is hidden and unseen”"Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allâh) did command me to say: 'Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things[/color](Al-Ma’idah”the Table” 5:116~117) [/quote]
Dear Ayed,

This quote provides more proof that the Quran is apocryphal. The Christians have Our Lord's own words to contradict these statements:

In John 8:53-58 (bolds are mine):

[quote]Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?"  Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'  You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.  Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad.  So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?"  Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, [b]I AM[/b]."[/quote]

Now, because of the quote "my glory is worth nothing...", along with John 14:28 ("The Father is greater than I"), one might argue that Our Lord isn't divine. But, such an interpretation only works when these verses are isolated from scripture (proof texting). Our Lord refers to His divine (and eternal) nature when at the end of this passage: "before Abraham came to be, [b]I AM[/b]." The following link provides information from a Muslim who converted to Christianity on this very topic ("I AM"):

[url="http://answering-islam.org.uk/Who/i_am.html"]http://answering-islam.org.uk/Who/i_am.html[/url]

He refers specifically to the verse John 8:58 at the end of the webpage.

What is funny about the Quranic text (and Arianism in general) is that it tries to sell readers the idea that their Jesus would deny his divinity, if given the chance--I assume that's the point of your quote from the Quran. In the case of the Quran's book "The Dinner Table," Muhammed records a passage in which Iesa (Jesus) is sitting in front of Allah, saying that he would never claim to be God (or a god). The punchline is this: the real Jesus was executed for the crime of...drum roll please...claiming to be equal to God (e.g. John 5:18)! This is the "crime" that caused the Sanhedrin to demand that the Romans crucify Him! The Jewish and Roman authorities ask Him (over...and over...and over...and over); and He never once denied His divinity. If you read the Gospels' Passion accounts, or watch Mel Gibson's movie, just pay attention to the parts where they question Jesus. Try and see if the Quranic psuedo-Jesus would behave differently.

My thought is that the Arian/Quranic Jesus, the Mormon Jesus, and all the other false Jesuses were predicted back the New Testament:

[quote]2 Cor 11: 4,5, 13-15 -- "But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts may be corrupted from a sincere (and pure) commitment to Christ.  For if someone comes and preaches [u]another Jesus [/u]than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.

For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, who masquerade as apostles of Christ.  And no wonder, for even Satan masquerades as an angel of light.  So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds."

2 Peter 2:1 --  "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

1 John 4:1-3 -- "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.  By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and [u]every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God[/u]. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already."[/quote]

The psuedo-Jesus in the Quran denies that he and his mother as "gods besides Allah." In reality, neither is a "god beside Allah." Jesus is one in being with the Father, one person of the Triune God. And His mother is a beautiful, immaculate creature of God.

[b]The "Only begotten Son."[/b]

John 3:16 describes Jesus as God's "only begotten son" (Filium suum unigenitum), while the Quran denies that Allah could beget a son (in Surah al-Ikhlas 112:1-4 -- "He begetteth not nor was begotten"). Either the New Testament is true in John 3:16 or the Quran is true--there is no inbetween. To Christians, the Quranic text looks more like it's inspired by Arian polemics than by God.

[Note: Actually, the Quran seems a bit inconsistant on the subject of Jesus' Sonship: in Marium 19-22, the Virgin Mary conceived after the Lord told her she would--it would seem that God [i]was[/i] the father of Jesus.]

In the Summa, St. Thomas Aquinas asks a related question: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104204.htm"]Whether the Son is equal to the Father in greatness? (Link)[/url] He answers in the affirmative, after answering the contrary arguments.

Long before Islam, Athanasius and other Christians fought against the heresy of Arianism. Thanks to the wisdom of these great Doctors of the Church, there is a great uniformity of belief in Christianity that Jesus Christ is true God/true Man, one in being with the Father.

I don't know why the Quran bothers to underline the importance of Jesus as a true prophet, while at the same time denying so much of what is said about Him in the New Testament. This makes me wonder if Muslims base any of their beliefs about Jesus and Mary on apocryphal Arian writings. That would seem to be the most logical reason; but I don't know enough about what Muslims believe about writings from the first centuries AD.

Maybe, Ayed, you could share with us what pre-Quranic texts that Islam uses and/or believes to be the inspired Word of God.

[Mateo el Feo]

Just a little PS:

Looking for an answer to the original question, I found the following: [url="http://www.grmi.org/renewal/Richard_Riss/evidences/32claims.html"][b][u]The Claims of Christ[/u][/b][/url]. I thought it was a good summary of Jesus claims.

Because it is so short, I'm just going to quote it all here:

[quote]According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus, during His ministry, often predicted that He would be raised from the dead (see John 10:17; Luke 9:22, 11:29,30, 16:31, 18:33; Mark 8:31, 9:9, 9:31, 10:34, 14:28; Matt. 16:4, 16:21, 17:9, 17:23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63). He offered His future resurrection as validation for His extensive claims concerning Himself. He claimed to have authority to forgive sins (Luke 5:20,21,24), and to be Teacher and Lord (John 13:13). He claimed that apart from Himself, one could do nothing (John 15:5). He said, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live" (John 11:25). He claimed that He would come again at the close of the age (Mark 13:26). He claimed to be the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament (see John 1:49-51 and 4:26). He claimed to be equal with God (John 5:18). This is not surprising since at least seven Old Testament passages equate the coming Messiah with God (Ps. 45:6,7; Isa. 9:6, 7:14; Micah 1:3; Zech. 14;9; Isa. 44:6 compared to Job 19:25, Mal. 3:1). For example, in Isaiah 9:6 we find the following prophecy concerning the Messiah to come: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (italics added).

These claims of Christ concerning Himself are quite shocking. C. S. Lewis has written:

[quote]"Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips. "[/quote]

C. S. Lewis reminds us that one of the most shocking aspects of Christ's claims is His claim to forgive sins. He writes of this:


[quote]"Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against Himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, Himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God, these words would imply what I can only regard as a silliness and conceit unrivalled by any other character in history.

Yet (and this is the strange, significant thing) even His enemies, when they read the Gospels, do not usually get the impression of silliness and conceit. Still less do unprejudiced readers. Christ says that He is "humble and meek" and we believe Him; not noticing that, if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings."[/quote]
[/quote]
C. S. Lewis quotes are from the book "Mere Christianity."

[yiannii]

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