Jesus' Creed

[Carson Weber]

Ayed,

I encourage you to read [u]The Challenge of Jesus[/u] by N.T. Wright.

God bless you.

[ayed]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful


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[color=red]Please read it thoroughly before any comments or correction [/color]
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I have numbered your questions, Mr.Aloyisus, so as to followed it up easily :
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The first question has two parts:
--”Why does Jesus claim to have had glory before the world was with the Father?
--Why does he say at another time:Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM St. John 8:58
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My answer is that all of prophets are infallable .Since Jesus is a prophet , then he is infallable .Far it be from Jesus to lie on us.Someone of you may ask:”How did Jesus have had this glory?The axiomatic answer is simply evident in that glory that Jesus has had is from Allah .Another one may ask:”How did you know, Mr.Ayed, that Jesus’s glory from Allah?Jesus himself will answer:
“I honour my Father And I seek not mine own “glory”: there is one that seeketh and judgeth”.We can also read this:“Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God”
In the two verses mentioned above, you can notice the following things:
--Jesus confirms that glory he has had is from Allah .
--Self-glorification is sensless unless it is from Allah, the Exalted.
--Allah honors Jesus.

@The second part of Mr.Aloyisus’question :”before Ibrahim came to be , I am”

My answer is :the phrase above means that Allah, the Almighy, the Exalted has “predetermined and chosen Jesus”.Jews nagged at Jesus .Thus, he told them he was determined beforehand by Allah in order to confirm that he is a sent chosen prophet by Allah .Jesus’ speech is not from his own but from Allah came down through “revelation” via the angel,Gabriel.As Jesus states:
“the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me”
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The second question :Mr.Aloyisus asks:” …In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. St John 1:-4; 10-14
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My answer is :Remember that Jesus is “infallable” and does not lie(Far it be from him to do so).Well, read the following to see what does it mean:
--”in the beginning was the word” .Since Jesus is the word of Allah then read the verse again after Substitution Test:
--“in the beginning of Jesus’ creation “.means that Allah has”preordained and chosen Jesus”.Since Jesus is of a beginning , then he must have had an end.Thus, this negates the claim that Jesus is”eternal”.
--“the word was with God”.It means Allah’s command.That is, when Allah wants to make something , He says ”Be! Then it is”.The “word” is but”a command” came down via Gabriel to Mary who conceived Jesus. “And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth”(Luke 1:26 , KJV)

--“the Word was made flesh”.Linguistically discussing, this phrase is in “passive voice”.So, it must have had an agent”the doer”.Well, who made the word flesh?Did it do that by itself?Who is the agent”the doer”?Let us see when we render this phrase to “active voice”:
@Passive voice:
A-The Word was made flesh”
B-The Word was made flesh by …”
C-Jesus was made flesh by Allah
D-Jesus was made flesh by Jesus.

@Active voice:
1-”…made the Word flesh”
2-“…made Jesus flesh.
3-The Word made the Word flesh.
4-Jesus made the Word flesh.
5-Jesus made Jesus flesh.
6-Allah made the Word flesh.
7-Allah made Jesus flesh.
Of your own volition , I let you choose from”the active & passive voices”the correct answer that fits into “the ellipsis”.

@As for the rest of the phrase”and dwelt among us”.Yes, Jesus was born and lived among his people , among his disciples , with his closer followers and with his people.

@(and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father).
--First, Jesus is infallable andIf Jesus says that he is begotten in any verse,then back up your statement.
--Second, you have to doubt in any bracketed expressions in any speech. Since your books have undergone insertions and changes ,then one has to doubt the above phrase in the question.Of these insertions are the following two examples :

A-“This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true(John 21:24, KJV).The underlined phrase is interpolated by copyists.

B-“But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe(John 19: 34~35 ,KJV).The underlined phrase is inserted by the copist to notify readers of John’s trueness.

So, this bracketed words in Mr.Aloyisus’ question under discussion are suspicious in that it is inserted by copyists so as to harmonize with what you claim”Jesus is begotten”No less no more.
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The third question of Mr.Aloyisus’ says:it is impossible for God to live in a community within Himself, in His INFINITE and ETERNAL existence, He can have 3 persons to One God, three co-equal co-eternal persons who are all but the One Infinite God, yet distinct of themselves. Do not tell me it is impossible because human logic cannot understand it, because we speak here of God Almighty, whom no human being can fully comprehend. Can One Infinite and ALL-POWERFUL God exist in Three Persons who are distinct yet undividable and fully One?
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Mr.Aloyisus!Focus on this issue carefully.
@Axiomatically,Allah is infinite and eternal .When you say that Allah is infinite , then you are , at the same time, entirely negating infinteness and uneternality.However, according to your creed , you claim that Jesus is a God lived with his disciples .Accordingly, how can you say that God is infinite and finite at the same time?

@All-powerful : since Jesus(based on your own creed)was crucified ,then crucifiction negates all-powerfulness away from Jesus and affirm Jesus’ weakness as well..
--Does Allah says “we are All-power three in one or one in three”?

@”Undiviable” is negated by Jesus’ death(according to your own creed).If Jesus died , then “The Father and the holy spirit” would have had died based on the ”Undivibaleness”.
--Does Allah says “we are undiviable three”?Does Allah say that He is three in one?Does He say He is consisting of three distinct persons?Does Allah or Jesus say that “we are three in one and one in three”?Definitely , nothing at all!

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The fourth question of Aloyisus’ says :”Can one of those persons who is distinct yet equal and one with God, through the Infinite Almighty Power of God, become both God and Man at the same time?
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@My answer is that they are not equal to each other at all since Allah is infinte while Jesus is finite.Moreover, Jesus is infallable who disonws your claim”equality”.Let us read what Jesus states about himself:
”The Father(Allah)is greater than I “.There is no equality you calim.Shall you believe Jesus or believe human beings?It is up to you.

@”become both God and Man at the same time”This means that Allah becomes infinite and finite at the same time which is degrading Allah’s Estimate and His Sublimity .Read :
--“I am the first and I am the last;besides Me there is NO GOD.who is like me?(Isaia 44:6, KJV).
--“Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any”(Isaia 44:8, KJV)

--“Had there been therein (in the heavens and the earth) gods besides Allâh, then verily both would have been ruined Glorified be Allâh, the Lord of the Throne, (High is He) above what they attribute to Him!”The Holy Quran( 21:22)
--“The Creator of the heavens and the earth He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates By this means He creates you (in the wombs) There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer”The Holy Quran(42:11)
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The fifth question of Aloyisus’ says: Can He worship God as a man, while Himself being God?If not, why? Is God not all-powerful, can He not do anything. Is this simply impossible because you cannot understand with human logic how it could be?
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My answer is this:
Before I answer your question , let us read the definition of”worship”what it means:Worship:”reverent honor and homage paid to God”.This definition clearly excludes “man” .(Webster‘s Encyclopedic Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, 1983).Allah is worshipped by His creature .Allah does not worship His creatures.

In the Holy Quran , Allah says“O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allâh aught but the truth The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allâh and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rûh) created by Him; so believe in Allâh and His Messengers Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you For Allâh is (the only) One Ilâh (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth And Allâh is All­Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs( Surat Al-Nisa’ “the women” 4:171)

All the praises and thanks be to Allâh, Who has sent down to His slave (Muhammad SAW) the Book (the Qur'ân), and has not placed therein any crookedness@(He has made it) Straight to give warning (to the disbelievers) of a severe punishment from Him, and to give glad tidings to the believers (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a fair reward (ie Paradise)@ They shall abide therein forever@And to warn those (Jews, Christians, and pagans) who say, "Allâh has begotten a son (or offspring or children)"@ No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers Mighty is the word that comes out of their mouths [ie He begot (took) sons and daughters] They utter nothing but a lie(Surat Al-Kuhf”The Cave” 18:1~5)

The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [ie she believed in the words of Allâh and His Books ] They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allâh does not eat) Look how We make the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth)(Surat Al-Ma’dah 5:75)

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I hope that , at least, I answered your questions .
--I beg your pardon if I made mistakes in my writings or interpretations.
--I will stop writing for some weeks because my son , at present,is having final exams and he is in need of me to revise with him his books.Till another useful topic, please keep our Phatmass Forum at a higher level of nobilty and love.Will you excuse me?Yes, I am sure of that.

Thank you in advance.

With my best wishes

Anyone who has any question or explanation can contact me at E-mail
sahite2004@hotmail.com


Ayed

[url="http://www.islam-guide.com/"]http://www.islam-guide.com/[/url]

Edited June 3, 2004 by ayed

[Winchester]

Ayed,

Believe you'll remember me. My last comments to you were quite combative and insolent. I also thought they flowed rather well.

Quotes from the Quran mean little, for as you believe Jesus to be merely a prophet, I believe Muhammed to have been merely a man, albeit a good military leader who was able by violence to conquer many peoples. Also, a good leader in death, to be able to marshal a devoted religious following from beyond the grave.

Jesus wrote no surmised creed. The fact of Catholic faith answers your questions: the steward of Christ's kingdom saw to it that a creed surmising Catholic belief was written, and we believe our steward incapable of teaching theological error.

The Bible does not contain all our faith explicitly, nor are its writings the limit of our faith. We have Tradition as well as Scripture, so proofs cannot be limited to the Bible only, and to deman such is to sever our religion. It's simply not a valid request, and I urge all Catholics to repeat that over and over to anyone demanding that until it sinks in to the requestor's head, the head in question explodes, they simply go away, or preferably, shut up and actually listen.

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

in my time here i have noticed that most, if not all, of your questions result from a misunderstanding of what the Trinity truly is. this is okay, afterall christians have trouble comprehending the trinity as well. however, we do hold certain things as true about the trinity, rather we understand them or not.

at any rate, if you go [url="http://answering-islam.org/Trinity/index.html"][b]here[/b][/url] you will find an index of articles written specifically for muslims to help them understand the Trinity better. many of them are even written by former muslims, who have since converted to christianity.

i hope this helps........pax christi (latin for "peace of Christ"),
phatcatholic

[yiannii]

What we have to remember is that God is also unknowable to us in our present forms, so we can't expect to fully understand the Trinity. In a sense God has translated himself into something which our earthly minds can comprehend.

[ayed]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful

Thank you Mr.Catholic , Yianni and the rest.
I hope that you have read this topic carefully.
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Mr.Winchester!I think that you have misunderstood me when I say that Jesus(peace be upon him)is a mere prophet. It is his own nature no less no more.Jesus has repeatedly stated many times that he is a son of man so as not be worshipped by people after him as what has happened so far.Jesus is a part of our creed and all of muslims in the world really respect him .If anyone denies Jesus , he will be”kafer”--infidel.Thus, the denier will be in the Hell.The prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)believed in Jesus as a chosen prophet from Allah Who sent Jesus to sons of Israel only NOT to all people.Muhammad called all nations to believe in Jesus .So, I hope that you understand this point.

Muhammad was commanded by Allah to spread the message of Islam not by violence as you have accused him of these groundless feeble charges.Unless you prove what you have said, then you are the accused not Muhammad.No blame to you , Mr.Winchseter , so long as you have often read tens of hundreds of books and watch movies that distort Islam.At your school , such erranous information are delivered to students if I am not mistaken.

My writing is clear and I do not accuse Jesus of writing surmised creed at all .I say that Jesus did not , does not and will not call himself a God as mentioned in your books and in the Holy Quran .Jesus neither commanded his disciples nor people around nor you to worship him.May you remember , Mr.Winchester , when Satan asked Jesus to worship(Satan). Read this :
”If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine@And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve(Luke 4:7-8 , KJV)

Did Jesus obeyed Satan?Definitely, not.Jesus told Satan that it is written on(Jesus)to worship only Allah.

Jesus explicitly called for worshipping only Allah many times as I cited in my topic and you remember when Jesus warned Satan in the verse(Luke 4:7-8 , KJV).

Mr.Winchester!If proofs cannot be limited to the Bible only, then will you ascrib them to a mere man--Paul?History does not lie , unless you intentionally blink facts and truth.

Find the word”God” through the Old and New Testaments and see what Allah calls Himself.Does He says:
--We are three”or “I am three in one”or” I have a son whose name is Jesus”or”We are three Gods in one”?Find just one and tell me!

Mr.Winchester!Your claims are completely groundless and invalid, unless you back up them!I just wonder, what would you do if someone accuses you of stealing his money!You will ask him to prove the charge against you, will you?
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Mr.Aloyisus , again , could you prove the following :

1-that Jesus , the Word made flesh, made everything and He made His mother. Because He made His own mother, He was able to make Her immaculate and keep her free from all sin?

2- that Jesus called for worshipping him?


Thank you in advance.

With my best wishes

sahite2004@hotmail.com

[yiannii]

The doctrine of the Trinity was unknown during Old Testament times; thus explaining why the clearest Scriptual evidence proving the Trinity is found in the New Testament. All this said there is a number of Old Testament verses where the Trinity is presented as a mystery but later becomes apparent in the light of Christ's revelation. An example of this is the use of the word "us" in the following verses, thus implying plurality of Persons.

[quote]“Then God said: [b]Let us[/b] make man in our image, after our likeness...So
God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him...”
(Gen. 1, 26-27)

Then the Lord God said, See, the man has become like [b]one of us[/b], knowing
good and evil...” (Gen. 3, 22)

“Come, [b]let us[/b] go down, and confuse their language there...” (Gen. 11, 7).[/quote]

This plurality of Persons in God was made evident at the very beginning of Christianity, when the Angel Gabriel appeared to the Virgin Mary at the Annunciation:

[quote]“And the angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the
power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be
born will be called holy, the Son of God” (St. Luke 1, 30-32 & 35).[/quote]

The beginning of Christ's public ministry provided another reference of the Trinity:

[quote]“And when he came up out of the water, immediately he saw the heavens
opened and the Spirit descending upon him like a dove; and a voice came
from heaven, Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased” (St.
Mark 1, 10-11)[/quote]

The New Testament provides the specific names of the Trinity of Persons in God in Christs great commission to His disciples at the end of St Matthew's Gospel:

[quote]“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the
name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching
them to obey everything that I have commanded you.  And remember, I am
with you always, to the end of the age” (St. Matt. 28, 19-20)[/quote]

See in this verse the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned distinctly, but under the singular term "name" rather than "names." They are therefore distinctive Persons but not seperate beings or gods. The very fact that the three Persons are grouped together under one name implies their equality.

St John. also alludes to the three persons of the Trinity in the following verse:

[quote]“And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word,
and the Holy Spirit.  And these three are one” (1 John 5, 7) [/quote]

There are many other passages in Scripture that provide evidence of Christ's divinity:

[quote]“Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, His name shall be called
Emmanuel (i.e., God with us)” (Is. 7, 14); 

“…a child has been born for us, a son given to us; authority rests upon his
shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace” (Is. 9, 6);

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
Word was God...And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us” (St.
John 1, 1-14); 

“Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am” (St. John 8, 58).[/quote]

Christians have always understood Christ's use of "I am" as a claim to divinity, identifying Himself with the God of Moses: "I am who am." The implication is obvious.

[quote]“The Father and I are one” (St. John 10, 30).

“My Lord and my God” (St. John 20, 28). [/quote]

St. Paul also writes of Christ’s divinity:

[quote]“...to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh,
comes the Messiah, who is over all, God blessed forever” (Rom. 9, 5);

“Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was
in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be
exploited” (Phil. 2, 5-6);

“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily” (Col. 2, 9);

“But of the Son he says, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the
righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom” (Heb. 1, 8). [/quote]

Christ constantly applied to Himself the supreme title of "Son of God," and accepted it from His followers without question:

[quote](St. Peter says) “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” (St. Matt.  16,
16);

(The High Priest says) “I put you under oath before the living God, tell us if you
are the Messiah, the Son of God. Jesus said to him, You have said so” (St.
Matt.  26, 63-64);

(St. John the Baptist says) “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of
the world!...And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of
God” (St. John 1, 29-34);

(The Blind Man says) “...Dost thou believe in the Son of God? He answered,
and said: Who is he, Lord, that I may believe in him? And Jesus said to
him: Thou hast both seen him; and it is he who talketh with thee. And He
said: I believe, Lord.  And falling down, he adored Him” (St. John 9, 35-
38);

(St. Martha says) “Yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God,
the one coming into the world” (St. John 11, 27). [/quote]

Christ claimed to be the real and literal Son of God, a claim understood but rejected by his enemies:

[quote]“…because you, being a man, make yourself God” (St. John 10, 31-33);

“Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, ‘He has uttered blasphemy.
Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. What
is your judgment?’ They answered, ‘He deserves death’” (St. Matt. 26, 65-
66).[/quote]

Not only did Christ take the title of Son of God, but He also assumed all the functions, acts, and the necessary and supreme attributes of God:

[quote]“The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in his hands” (St. John
3, 35);

“...whatever the Father does, the Son does likewise” (St. John 5, 19);

“If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I
do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you
may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father”  (St. John 10, 37-38);

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me” (St. John 14, 1);

“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From
now on you do know him and have seen him. Philip said to him, Lord, show
us the Father, and we will be satisfied. Jesus said to him, Have I been with
you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen
me has seen the Father...Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the
Father is in me?” (St. John 14, 6-10);

“...I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be
glorified in the Son. If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it” (St.
John 14, 13-14);

“All that the Father has is mine” (St. John 16, 15). [/quote]

Christ claimed to be the supreme judge:

[quote]“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then
he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the
nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd
separates the sheep from the goats” (St. Matt. 25, 31-32). [/quote]

Only God can have the knowledge of all hearts and minds.

Christ claimed authority over the Sabbath:

[quote]“For the Son of man is lord of the sabbath” (St. Matt. 12, 8). [/quote]

Only God can change his own laws.

As God, He forgave sins:

[quote]“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to
forgive sins...Stand up, take your bed and go to your home” (St. Matt. 9, 6). [/quote]

Christ also declared that He would rise again by His own power:

[quote]“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” (St. John 2, 19);

“No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power
to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again” (St. John 10, 18). [/quote]

[yiannii]

do u want more quotes? LOL

[yiannii]

The following table sheds more light on the divine attributes of Christ:

Yahweh was called “the God of glory” (Ps. 29 [28], 3)
the resurrected Christ is “Lord of glory” (1 Cor. 2, 8)

God is Lord of Lords (Deut. 10, 17)
Christ is Lord of Lords (Rev.17, 14)

God is the only savior (Is. 43, 11)
Christ is savior (St. Luke 2, 11)

God is the source of living water (Jer. 17, 13)
Christ is the source of living water (St. John 4, 14)

The Lord’s thoughts cannot be directed (Is. 40, 13)
so to, no one can instruct the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2, 16)

The Lord God owns earth and all its fullness (Ps. 24 [23], 1)
likewise does the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 10, 26)

God never changes (Ps. 102 [101], 26-27)
Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (Heb. 13, 8)

God is the light (Ps. 27 [26], 1)
Christ is the light of the world (St. John 8, 12)

God is the searcher of hearts and minds (Jer. 17, 10)
Christ is He who searches mind and heart (Rev. 2, 23)

God will come with all the holy ones (Zech. 14, 5)
Christ will come with all the saints (1 Thes. 3, 13)



[i]Thanks to Lumen Verum for providing me with this table.[/i]

[Winchester]

Ayed,

We beleive that denying Christ's deity, one denies Him, so we have to disagree here. "The Father and I are one"

[ayed]

In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful


Thank you for your responses.

[color=red]Mr.Yianni [/color]!There is something called”fallacy”!
The definition of fallacy is : “a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning”.If you have not read the topic carefully , you may quote such irrelevant proofs as you have done.

Though your quotes all are against not for you, I appreciate your time spent to provide me with them.

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[color=red]Mr.Winchester[/color]![color=blue]Could you explain the verse "The Father and I are one"

I am waiting for you interpretation. [/color]--------------------------------------------------------


I still asking Mr.Aloyisus to prove what he has stated in his previous own discourse:

1-that Jesus , the Word made flesh, made everything and He made His mother. Because He made His own mother, He was able to make Her immaculate and keep her free from all sin.

2- that Jesus called for worshipping him?

The topic kindly be closed ,unless Mr.Aloyisus provides me with proofs I asked for.


Thank you in advance.

With my best wishes

sahite2004@hotmail.com


Ayed

[Aloysius]

1. [i]St. John 1[/i]IN THE BEGINING WAS THE WORD, AND THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND [b]THE WORD WAS GOD.[/b] ALL THINGS WERE MADE THROUGH HIM, AND WITHOUT HIM NOTHING WAS MADE.

It does not nor does it intend to say "in the begining of Jesus' creation"

in english, that wording is the exact same as saying "In the begining the word was" the only reason it says "In the begining was the word" is that it's more poetic that way
and into that shall we substitute "In the begining Jesus was"

"In the begining" is the same as that which begins the Bible, it clearly refers to B4 the creation of the world

again, subsituting Jesus for "The Word", as He claimed to be the Word of God and this is what His Disciple says of Him:
"And Jesus was with God (in the begining), And JESUS WAS GOD, All things were made through Him and without Him nothing was made.

"The Word was made flesh" is answered in Luke who made the word flesh (of course, in this tone of voice he existed and was turned into flesh, he was made flesh not in the sense that He didnt exist before the flesh, but in the sense that He existed before the flesh. Anyway, [i]Luke 1:35[/i]: "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." Jesus is made flesh by the Holy Spirit because the Father willed it. Jesus existed before but was INCARNATED, made flesh.

2 I have read the topic carefully, and come to the conclusion that Yianni's scripture references clearly show that He claimed to be God. He did not seek His own glory, though, as you have shown in your verse citations, but He DID say He was the literal SON OF THE LIVING GOD.

The Father glorifies His Son such that His name is above all other names, the Father glorifies Jesus. Jesus does not seek His own glory, for he does not need to, for He is of the Father and the Father is of Him and His glory is that He is God.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son" [i]John 3:16[/i] This shows Jesus existed before He came into the world, along with John 1. One question I have, if you believe this scriptures how can you not at least believe that Jesus existed before He existed as a flesh and blood human being, He said He "came down from heaven" [i]John 6[/i]

He said no one knows the Father except the Son, whom He claimed to Be, and no one can come to the Father except by Him. This is very clear to me: He claimed to be God. He didn't shout at ppl to worship Him, but exhorted them to Love Him and BELIEVE in Him. People worshipped Him because they believed He was God, and He told them He was God.

[b]He said:[/b]
[quote]It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught byGod. Every one that hath heard of the Father and hath learned cometh forth me. [/quote] [i]John 6:45[/i]
[b]And then He proceded to TEACH THEM, read the rest of John 6 to see Him teaching them, and continue to see in the following verses Jesus taught them because the prophecy said God would teach them.[/b]
[quote]Now, about the midst of the feast, Jesus went up into the temple and taught. [/quote] [i]John 7:14[/i]

[quote]And early in the morning he came again into the temple: and all the people came to him. And sitting down he taught them. [/quote][i]John 8:2[/i]

[quote]Jesus answered him: I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in the synagogue and in the temple, whither all the Jews resort: and in secret I have spoken nothing. [/quote]

Edited June 15, 2004 by Aloysius

[yiannii]

[quote name='ayed' date='Jun 15 2004, 02:31 PM'] In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful


Thank you for your responses.

[color=red]Mr.Yianni [/color]!There is something called”fallacy”!
The definition of fallacy is : “a misconception resulting from incorrect reasoning”.If you have not read the topic carefully , you may quote such irrelevant proofs as you have done.

Though your quotes all are against not for you, I appreciate your time spent to provide me with them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[color=red]Mr.Winchester[/color]![color=blue]Could you explain the verse "The Father and I are one"

I am waiting for you interpretation. [/color]--------------------------------------------------------


I still asking Mr.Aloyisus to prove what he has stated in his previous own discourse:

1-that Jesus , the Word made flesh, made everything and He made His mother. Because He made His own mother, He was able to make Her immaculate and keep her free from all sin.

2- that Jesus called for worshipping him?

The topic kindly be closed ,unless Mr.Aloyisus provides me with proofs I asked for.


Thank you in advance.

With my best wishes

sahite2004@hotmail.com


Ayed [/quote]
[quote]Mr.Winchester!Your claims are completely groundless and invalid, unless you back up them![/quote]

I [b]was[/b] backing up claimes of Jesus' divinty with scripture, I thought that was rather obvious didn't you?

Sorry but what exactly is the point you are trying to get to?

In Christ & Mary,

Yiannii.

[yiannii]

P.S. What falicies do you think I have stated Ayed.

[Winchester]

Ayed,
I don't have the energy to look it up. It's in the NT, and it was pretty much a non sequiter, anyhoo.

I'm not going to take up whistling in the ocean, although it used to be a major past time for me.