Things You Should Know As A Catholic

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1341858781' post='2453988']
I don't think that using the sacraments as a reward is a good idea, though, and that's how it comes across if you have to pass a test before receiving a sacrament --like you "earned" the sacrament. I definitely agree that if there are no expectations of people knowing this stuff, no one will bother. But I think we have enough problems with people seeing confirmation as "Catholic Graduation" and we don't need to turn First Holy Communion into some sort of reward, as well.
[/quote]

I would agree - but I didn't see it as a reward growing up - ever. If catechesis stops after Holy Communion or Confirmation, then there's a problem. For us, though, we were not only quizzed on our memorization, but on our understanding of the memorized material, as well as memorized prayers. And when we were old enough that memorization no longer cut it, we started studying theology.

But it all starts with memorization.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1341833623' post='2453846']
I think maybe this problem is deeper than "the past 40 years".. As if from 34AD - 1962 catechesis was splendid and without incident...

Pelosi was born in 1940, and was most likely catechised between 1945 and 1956.

Biden was born in 1942, and was most likely catechised between 1947 and 1958.

Blaming everything on "the past 40 years" gets old and when used ad nauseam; really only denotes those who seem to wish to separate the Church into Pre and Post V2. (oops, did I say that?)

Content is 'thrown' out when you have non-engaged catechists, do-little or do-nothing parents, and a culture (which is not confined to a time period) wherein the proper attention is not given from Bishop down to the importance of the tenets of the faith, which were enumerated very well in the very first post; and If they are taught, they are "just the things we memorize, then forget; because the catechist, pastor, parents and parish has not made the 'why' relevant."

Blaming poor catechesis on the past 40 years is a cowardly cop-out, an excuse, a scapegoat on which hedged bets are poised. "We're doing the best we can, but those darned last 40 years..."

Paron my run-on sentences and spelling errors, it's Mondya.
[/quote]

I won't blame poor catechesis on the past 40 years. I'll blame poor catechesis for part of the major problem in the world today. I don't know when it started, but VII [i]did[/i] certainly seem to be the hinging point at which problems (perhaps existing) suddenly became immediately visible to anyone who cared enough to watch or listen.

But, really? Do I need to draw attention to your ad hominem attacks here? Just because Pelosi and Biden went through catechesis during a time which you seem to imply also had poor catechesis (or are you saying that catechetical instruction is as good now as it has ever been?), doesn't mean that they didn't live through the period immediately following VII when even people with solid theological training were turned completely around (by instructors of the faith), and taught heresy.

But again, I agree. It is the "why" that is relevant, much more than the "what". Uninstructed people can still get to heaven if they understand the "why".

Okay - backing off again...

[MissScripture]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1341867271' post='2454075']
I would agree - but I didn't see it as a reward growing up - ever. If catechesis stops after Holy Communion or Confirmation, then there's a problem. For us, though, we were not only quizzed on our memorization, but on our understanding of the memorized material, as well as memorized prayers. And when we were old enough that memorization no longer cut it, we started studying theology.

But it all starts with memorization.
[/quote]
If the testing is happening all the way through, without regard to sacramental prep (by that I mean, you don't have a test in religious ed the year you get a sacrament, but not in other years) then it makes more sense. I was thinking you meant more along the lines of, "okay, now we have this test, before you're allowed to make your First Communion, and then this test will happen before Confirmation, and if you don't know XYZ, you have to wait." If the testing is not connected to reception of the sacraments, then I think it could at least serve as a good bench mark of where the kids are at and what else needs to be taught/emphasized in religious ed.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1341868005' post='2454080']
If the testing is happening all the way through, without regard to sacramental prep (by that I mean, you don't have a test in religious ed the year you get a sacrament, but not in other years) then it makes more sense. I was thinking you meant more along the lines of, "okay, now we have this test, before you're allowed to make your First Communion, and then this test will happen before Confirmation, and if you don't know XYZ, you have to wait." If the testing is not connected to reception of the sacraments, then I think it could at least serve as a good bench mark of where the kids are at and what else needs to be taught/emphasized in religious ed.
[/quote]
We had testing all the way through, but we also had to pass certain benchmark tests in order to receive our Sacraments. I'm not sure if anyone ever FAILED a test, though I know some did come close.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1341868005' post='2454080']
If the testing is happening all the way through, without regard to sacramental prep (by that I mean, you don't have a test in religious ed the year you get a sacrament, but not in other years) then it makes more sense. I was thinking you meant more along the lines of, "okay, now we have this test, before you're allowed to make your First Communion, and then this test will happen before Confirmation, and if you don't know XYZ, you have to wait." If the testing is not connected to reception of the sacraments, then I think it could at least serve as a good bench mark of where the kids are at and what else needs to be taught/emphasized in religious ed.
[/quote]

Well, I guess for us it was both. They had testing every year - and you could pass or fail every year. Before the sacraments, the tests would be more difficult, and if you couldn't pass, then you couldn't receive the sacraments. But I don't remember anyone actually failing a sacrament test (as opposed to the other ones, which were failed a few times). Maybe they just made the effort to spend extra time with the kiddos who didn't know their stuff before receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation... don't know.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1341833623' post='2453846']
I think maybe this problem is deeper than "the past 40 years".. As if from 34AD - 1962 catechesis was splendid and without incident...

Pelosi was born in 1940, and was most likely catechised between 1945 and 1956.

Biden was born in 1942, and was most likely catechised between 1947 and 1958.

Blaming everything on "the past 40 years" gets old and when used ad nauseam; really only denotes those who seem to wish to separate the Church into Pre and Post V2. (oops, did I say that?)

Content is 'thrown' out when you have non-engaged catechists, do-little or do-nothing parents, and a culture (which is not confined to a time period) wherein the proper attention is not given from Bishop down to the importance of the tenets of the faith, which were enumerated very well in the very first post; and If they are taught, they are "just the things we memorize, then forget; because the catechist, pastor, parents and parish has not made the 'why' relevant."

Blaming poor catechesis on the past 40 years is a cowardly cop-out, an excuse, a scapegoat on which hedged bets are poised. "We're doing the best we can, but those darned last 40 years..."

Paron my run-on sentences and spelling errors, it's Mondya.
[/quote]
Poor catechism in recent decades is indeed a serious part of the problem, though hardly the whole problem. When people in many places aren't being taught the truth from their pastors and religious education, it's hard to expect them to be orthodox.

No need to accuse those who mention this of cowardice.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1341867957' post='2454079']
I won't blame poor catechesis on the past 40 years. I'll blame poor catechesis for part of the major problem in the world today. I don't know when it started, but VII [i]did[/i] certainly seem to be the hinging point at which problems (perhaps existing) suddenly became immediately visible to anyone who cared enough to watch or listen.
[/quote]

One of my former spiritual directors made this hyperbole (and I am paraphrasing, my memory isn't perfect): Vatican II revealed that the pretty wrapping covered an empty box.

By empty, he did not mean completely void of substance or meaning, just that the church was not where we thought it was. Another analogy would be a young adult who moves away from home for the first time and realizes that he is not as prepared for the real world as he thought he was.

It's possible that Vatican II exposed some underlying problems. (I'm not old enough to remember before Vat II.)

[Groo the Wanderer]

the problems were there before Vat II. I still run into people that prayed the rosary during Mass. They were supposed to be praying the Mass along WITH the priest - the missals had the translations. Even then, not everyone 'got it'.

[Gabriela]

[quote name='brianthephysicist' timestamp='1341845854' post='2453895']
This makes me think of the quote from Emerson:

Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become deeds. Watch your deeds, they become habits. Watch your habits, they become character. Character is everything.
[/quote]

Ohhh... I just have to say this: Emerson ripped it off from the Talmud. The Talmud was written way before Emerson was ever born. Just FYI.

[Gabriela]

Speaking of "testing": Does anyone test that the kids are actually [i]living[/i] the precepts and doing good works, etc., before admitting them to Communion? I still think that's much more important than memorizing the lists. (Though I repeat: I see the good in learning the lists. I just don't think it's the [i]most[/i] important thing in Catechesis.) If no one's doing that, I really don't see the point in testing them on the lists before admitting them to Communion.

Though, I have heard a lot of my elders say that they memorized a bunch of stuff in school (like Shakespeare and other literature) and never understood what any of it meant as kids, but as they got older, and still remembered it, the meaning began to dawn on them, and they discovered the purpose of the memorization. Still, those weren't things that one memorized in order to influence the way they lived. If we're going to test those much-more-important things, we ought to test that the message is getting through by testing the living as well, no?

Of course, this is tantamount to testing how much people sin/fail to do good works before admitting them to Communion. Which is absurd.

In which case, I conclude that hinging admittance to Communion on any kind of testing is just absurd!

[MissyP89]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1341868516' post='2454085']
Well, I guess for us it was both. They had testing every year - and you could pass or fail every year. Before the sacraments, the tests would be more difficult, and if you couldn't pass, then you couldn't receive the sacraments. But I don't remember anyone actually failing a sacrament test (as opposed to the other ones, which were failed a few times). Maybe they just made the effort to spend extra time with the kiddos who didn't know their stuff before receiving Holy Communion and Confirmation... don't know.
[/quote]

Our tests were all memorization based, and while there were kids that did fail, you really had to work hard to fail out because they would help you through if you couldn't remember.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1341859743' post='2454004']
This is my opinion as well. I went through CCD from 1996-2003, and every single person in my class tuned out and eventually fell away, myself included. It was structured with memorization, recitation by rote, tests, homework and grading. What we walked out with after 8 years was a bunch of prayers we could parrot at will without any understanding of what it meant or why we should care.

I didn't know what transubstantiation was until I was 18, and attended Adoration for the first time as a sophomore in college. I never knew about either of those things until that point.

It took a Protestant ministry to actually teach me about living a relationship with God. So yes, my catechesis did fail me, and that was with knowing much of the list in the OP.

Teaching them the Faith is critical, but if it's not built on getting to know and love Christ and building zeal for His Church, then it's all pointless.
[/quote] But teaching someone to love Christ is pointless if they don't know why
You CANNOT be an adult catholic with a 5th grade level of understanding.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1341892225' post='2454255']
But teaching someone to love Christ is pointless if they don't know why
You CANNOT be an adult catholic with a 5th grade level of understanding.
[/quote]
Sure you can.

[Ed Normile]

A few thoughts, Fides jack wrote about catholics are not supposed to marry non catholics, we are also not supposed to get married on feast days either.

I missed the whole, "last forty years" thing that Milkobe wrote about, I do not blame post V2, rather I blame the American catholic church which is almost a seperate entity from the Roman catholic church. Heck its almost a seperate entity from parish to parish, definetly from diocese to diocese.

Pre cana is almsot a joke, I took it with my wife 26 years ago and the young couple, not a priest or a deacon, that "taught" the class knew less about the faith than I did. They actually said it would be better for us to live together for a few months to see if we were compatible both in mindset and sexually than to enter into marriage and risk being later divorced. I am irish and so is my wife, we had to have chaperones until we were engaged, with a ring on her finger, then we had a curfew that she had to be home by. My father in law would have killed me if I suggested living with his daughter, my dad would have killed me if he thought I was even considering it. I told the priest, a young guy, and he said its better to be certain than to break a sacrament, I asked him if he knew he was as much as telling me and my future wife to become adulterers. The rest of the class was inane tripe such as , make a financial pie, should your wife hyphenate her name, who will pick the childs name, who will be the boss, who will make the financial decisions, what type of sex did we expect, and write your wedding vows.

Unfortunately not much has changed as my daughter just went through basically the same class in her pre-cana, main difference her class was $120.00 we got ours for free, and it was worth every penny we paid.

ed

Edited July 10, 2012 by Ed Normile

[Ed Normile]

My three young adult kids went to Columbus Ohio last sunday and missed mass as they thought it was 12:00 and had changed to 11:30, so they caught the evening mass at 6:00 pm. The priest gave a homily they shared with me, it seemed as if was very entertaining to him, my kids were a bit shocked when the priest spent the entire homily talking about how God still loved the charachter Michael Corleone from the movie The Godfather even though he killed people and stole money and was proud of him when he decided not to sell drugs. They said the priest also messed of the Nicene creed too. But they did say they had a rocking band ! I wonder how often they have youth masses in rome or other parts of the world ? I get to celebrate mass in teh Mary Queen of the Universe Basilica in Orlando Fl. during the winter, its so refreshing seeing the South Americans, the Phillipians, and the other foreigners approach the Sacrament dressed modestly, women wearing mantillas, men in suits, receiving on the tongue, many kneeling to receive, talk about reverence not taught in the American church. And these are people who are on vacation to make dizzy world and universe studios and shamu world who take the time to dress up and act appropriately to receive our Lord, while our youth masses are generally full of kids in soccer shorts and tank tops.

ed