Ed Normile Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Makes you wonder how Paul of Thiebes, or for that matter how any of the saints who lived prior to the Baltimore Catechsim became saints without this knowledge. I am sure glad Jesus did not require a test before communion, those poor fishermen and tax collectors and gentiles might have never received. ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341802099' post='2453763'] I agree. The problem of the past 40 years is we threw the content out and the love of the Eucharist went with it. Just ask Pelosi(oops did I say that?) [/quote] Well, to be fair, we didn't just throw the content out of catechesis. It left a lot of Masses, too. I'm thinking of people in countries and eras where it just isn't reasonable to expect that they receive this knowledge thorough catechesis. They can, nonetheless, go to a (proper) Mass and, by simple observation, understand that the Eucharist is super-holy and worthy of reverence. They can figure out that the saints are super-helpful just by walking around a church. They can get the most important lessons of the Christian faith just by listening to the Word and to homilies. For most of Catholic history, the large majority of faithful Catholics did not have a thorough Catholic education, yet they were faithful Catholics (and some of them even saints!). So while I highly value learning (I'm a teacher and a grad student myself), I think it's important to keep knowledge in perspective when it comes to faith. Of course it can help develop faith, but if someone can't rattle off the spiritual works of mercy, it doesn't mean s/he can't recognize them as good things when s/he sees them, and begin to do them by following that recognition of conscience. If someone from a country where the Church is majorly oppressed and so no Catholic schools exist and all Masses are conducted in secret came to you and said they didn't know these things, would you say to them, "Your catechesis has failed you"? I'd say, "Dude, you went to Mass even though they would have killed you if they'd found out? You are awesome!" Edited July 9, 2012 by curiousing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Normile Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1341802848' post='2453769'] Well, to be fair, we didn't just throw the content out of catechesis. It left a lot of Masses, too. I'm thinking of people in countries and eras where it just isn't reasonable to expect that they receive this knowledge thorough catechesis. They can, nonetheless, go to a (proper) Mass and, by simple observation, understand that the Eucharist is super-holy and worthy of reverence. They can figure out that the saints are super-helpful just by walking around a church. They can get the most important lessons of the Christian faith just by listening to the Word and to homilies. For most of Catholic history, the large majority of faithful Catholics did not have a thorough Catholic education, yet they were faithful Catholics (and some of them even saints!). So while I highly value learning (I'm a teacher and a grad student myself), I think it's important to keep knowledge in perspective when it comes to faith. Of course it can help develop faith, but if someone can't rattle off the spiritual works of mercy, it doesn't mean they can't recognize them as good things when s/he sees them, and begin to do them by following that recognition of conscience. If someone from a country where the Church is majorly oppressed and so no Catholic schools exist and all Masses are conducted in secret came to you and said they didn't know these things, would you say to them, "Your catechesis has failed you"? I'd say, "Dude, you went to Mass even though they would have killed you if they'd found out? You are awesome!" [/quote] I think it was Jesus who asked us to beleive with a child-like faith. The reverence is gone in most of the U.S. catholic church, if you do not beleive me perhaps you should travel as I do, its almost impossible to find two parishes that have the same service. One parish everyone holds hand from the priest down through the aisels, another they are all doing the "Y" from the YMCA song during the Our Father, I have seen giant satin butterflies adorning the altar. Try going to a youth mass, kids acting as EMHC's wearing gym shorts and sneakers on the altar, worshipping to the sound of an electric guitar and drums and cymbals, this is to attract the youth and teach them reverence of the Most Holy Sacrament? I grew up with songs like Holy God we praise Thy name, now you hear songs that as much as say we are the church, we are the most important part of the mass. ed Edited July 9, 2012 by Ed Normile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1341803137' post='2453772'] I think it was Jesus who asked us to beleive with a child-like faith. ed [/quote] I'm pretty sur[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif]e you're right. But then, I ca[/font][/size]n't list the The 10 Commandments and The 6 Precepts and The 7 Sacraments and The 3 Theological Virtues and The 4 Cardinal Virtues and The 7 Gifts of the Spirit and The 12 Fruits of the Spirit and The Spiritual Works of Mercy and The Corporal Works of Mercy and The 8 Beatitudes and The 7 Deadly Sins and The 3 Evangelical Counsels and The 3 Eminently Good Works and The 9 Ways of being an accessory for another's sin... so what do I know? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341802099' post='2453763'] I agree. The problem of the past 40 years is we threw the content out and the love of the Eucharist went with it. Just ask Pelosi(oops did I say that?) [/quote] I think maybe this problem is deeper than "the past 40 years".. As if from 34AD - 1962 catechesis was splendid and without incident... Pelosi was born in 1940, and was most likely catechised between 1945 and 1956. Biden was born in 1942, and was most likely catechised between 1947 and 1958. Blaming everything on "the past 40 years" gets old and when used ad nauseam; really only denotes those who seem to wish to separate the Church into Pre and Post V2. (oops, did I say that?) Content is 'thrown' out when you have non-engaged catechists, do-little or do-nothing parents, and a culture (which is not confined to a time period) wherein the proper attention is not given from Bishop down to the importance of the tenets of the faith, which were enumerated very well in the very first post; and If they are taught, they are "just the things we memorize, then forget; because the catechist, pastor, parents and parish has not made the 'why' relevant." Blaming poor catechesis on the past 40 years is a cowardly cop-out, an excuse, a scapegoat on which hedged bets are poised. "We're doing the best we can, but those darned last 40 years..." Paron my run-on sentences and spelling errors, it's Mondya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianthephysicist Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341801952' post='2453756'] Divine Revelation is pretty much par for the course to getting to heaven. Lists make things easy to memorize, in order to, as I said earlier, [b]internalize them so we may become holy. Head knowledge becomes heart knowledge[/b]. [/quote] This makes me think of the quote from Emerson: Watch your thoughts, they become words. Watch your words, they become deeds. Watch your deeds, they become habits. Watch your habits, they become character. Character is everything. I think this idea works in more than one way. The first (and most obvious) is if you think bad things it leads to ... which leads to developing bad character. The second (and most pertinent to this thread) is that if you think good/holy things it leads to ... which leads to developing good/holy character. I think Bro Adam is just trying to give us some of the good and holy thoughts that lead to good and holy developments in our character. Sure, maybe he shouldn't have said that our catechesis has failed us, but I took that as a good challenge, a brotherly admonition that we still have something good to work towards. As a sidenote, the third way (and also my favorite of the three) is that the chain works a little bit in reverse. In dealing with my issues of lust vs love, I would sometimes force myself to do the right thing and to change my language and it has begun to work on changing my thoughts and my heart which in turn helps with the whole process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341686386' post='2453160'] Today is Saturday. Go to confession. Do not die an unprepared death. Your eternal soul depends on it. Your catechesis has failed you if you do not know: The 10 Commandments The 6 Precepts The 7 Sacraments The 3 Theological Virtues The 4 Cardinal Virtues The 7 Gifts of the Spirit The 12 Fruits of the Spirit The Spiritual Works of Mercy The Corporal Works of Mercy The 8 Beatitudes The 7 Deadly Sins The 3 Evangelical Counsels The 3 Eminently Good Works The 9 Ways of being an accessory for another's sin. [/quote] Thank you for reminding us of the basics, sometimes I forget what I learned in grade school. You should add to the list basic prayers, and how to look up a verse in Scripture. Not knowing these don't make you a bad Catholic, just a catholic with homework. And if you can't remember them all , at least figure out WHERE to find them. You can't practice a faith if you don't know your faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341800417' post='2453728'] It is a direct quote from the Roman Catholic Daily Missal published by Angelus. [/quote] Ah - that's the problem. That is not a traditional Missal. Sure, it's for the latest edition of the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Mass, but I remember when it was published - I worked at a Catholic retail store at the time. So, I wonder where they got their wording from...? Still, the traditional form of the 6th law of the Church, is this: "To observe the laws of the Church concerning marriage." This is something that I've always understood meant that we shouldn't marry non-Catholics (which used to be a law). The wording from Angelus Press makes it sound like the Church has laws on when we can or can't *ahem* embrace our marital obligation *cough*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341800301' post='2453727'] Knowing the 265 popes wont get you to heaven, and its not me you are disagreeing with, it is the Church. Knowing the ways you can be an accomplice will help you become holy. It is not meant to be funny. Our ignorance of the faith harms the Church as a whole. That is why personal missals include the basic formulas I listed and they are required for the sacraments in places. [/quote] No, I'm not disagreeing with the Church. Just because Angelus Press includes them in a missal that was more or less timed with Summorum Pontificum, doesn't mean that [i]they[/i] are the foundational "formulas". I won't be requiring my son to learn the "9 ways", but he'll have most of the other stuff on your list memorized - as well as the mysteries of the rosary, the apostles, the 4 Marks, and knowing my wife, probably the books of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Idea:: Post all these list on here for the benefit of the poorly Catechized (sp?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Still - I AGREE with you. Our ignorance of the faith harms the Church - both personally and as a whole. Knowing these things can help us be holy. I agree wholeheartedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappo Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341723213' post='2453379'] Btw, some of our priests require their 2nd graders to recite all of those to be admitted to Communion. So, are you smarter than a second grader [/quote] [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1341759677' post='2453488'] Wile these things are good to know, I have to say I don't agree with having some kind of test for a child to be given the Sacraments. But that is just my personal opinion. [/quote] Infants don't know all of those things yet the East still sees it fit that they recieve [b]both [/b]first communion and confirmation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1341759155' post='2453486'] Heard that.. I've memorized the entire Baltimore Catechism at one point. I've just forgotten it by now. [/quote] I sometimes surprise myself at what I can recall. [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1341759677' post='2453488'] Wile these things are good to know, I have to say I don't agree with having some kind of test for a child to be given the Sacraments. But that is just my personal opinion. [/quote] I think testing our kids before receiving sacraments is one of the crucial things that is missing in our catechesis today. We don't [i]require[/i] them to know anything anymore, and that's a big reason why we have such a huge crisis of faith today. But that is just my personal opinion. Wow - I'm hitting this thread pretty hard. I guess this one really strikes a chord with me. Maybe I should back off for a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1341857351' post='2453963'] Idea:: Post all these list on here for the benefit of the poorly Catechized (sp?) [/quote] i actually have most of these in one pamphlet form if anyone is interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Slappo' timestamp='1341857503' post='2453966'] Infants don't know all of those things yet the East still sees it fit that they recieve [b]both [/b]first communion and confirmation. [/quote] Yes they do, but I bet they make sure they know them or the equivalent when they hit grade school like we had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now