Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341686386' post='2453160'] Today is Saturday. Go to confession. Do not die an unprepared death. Your eternal soul depends on it. Your catechesis has failed you if you do not know: The 10 Commandments The 6 Precepts The 7 Sacraments The 3 Theological Virtues The 4 Cardinal Virtues The 7 Gifts of the Spirit The 12 Fruits of the Spirit The Spiritual Works of Mercy The Corporal Works of Mercy The 8 Beatitudes The 7 Deadly Sins The 3 Evangelical Counsels The 3 Eminently Good Works The 9 Ways of being an accessory for another's sin. [/quote] Yeah, gosh, it seems like bad list-makers make just awful Catholics. I should think it'd be much more important to LIVE these bullet points than to KNOW them. (But I agree that knowing them can HELP one live them. I just don't think they're absolutely necessary for that...) Edited July 9, 2012 by curiousing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1341711681' post='2453282'] You also forgot the following: 4 Marks of True Church 3 Pillars of Church Authority 3 things necessary to make a sin mortal 2 things necessary to make a sin venial 20 mysteries of the rosary 73 books of the bible 12 apostles 21 Ecumenical Councils 34 Doctors of the Church 265 Popes [/quote] ...AND A PARTRIDGE IN A PEAR TREE!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1341800876' post='2453736'] ...AND A PARTRIDGE IN A PEAR TREE!!! [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341724010' post='2453404'] Learning and meditating on these foundational formulas gives a person an amazing foundation to build on the spiritual life which is why it is included in most missals. I am not advocating anyone is a bad Catholic for not knowing them, just strongly recommending we learn them as a gift from the Church to help us get to heaven. [/quote] Well, alright then! I agree, it'd be awesome to know them. But I think a lot of people have much more important things to work on on their way to heaven (even if, as some say, it wouldn't take long to learn them—for some of us, it would take an incredibly long time). And what about the illiterate? And the terribly undereducated but heroically faithful? And what, really, about the "little children"? I just don't think the purpose of catechesis is list-making. It's about forming a person in relationship to God. I once took a class from a rabbi who told a story about a bunch of yeshiva boys who were dissing a little old Sephardi woman for not knowing as much as the big important yeshiva boys. The rabbi interrupted their arrogant festivities to chide them: "That little old woman has more fear of Heaven in her little finger than you boys have in your whole bodies!" That shut them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 it's not either you have a relationship with Christ or you know that whole list. it's both/and. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1341759677' post='2453488'] Wile these things are good to know, I have to say I don't agree with having some kind of test for a child to be given the Sacraments. But that is just my personal opinion. [/quote] I understand where you are coming from, but that is what is eautiful about our faith. In our covenantal faith there are many layers to receiving the Sacraments. Instruction is a basic one. You can get marred without knowing anything about the. THEOLOGYof the body, but the more you know the more beautiful you see the Sacrament is and the less likely you are to fall into sexual sin. Of course a Sacrament isn't going to be withheld from a child who can't memorize. Most parishes have a minimum requirement for education before the Sacraments can be received. Its all about holiness. Btw typing on my phone sorry for errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 knowing them is just the start. to really live the faith, you also need to understand them. what is good. why and how is gooder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1341801604' post='2453749'] I understand where you are coming from, but that is what is eautiful about our faith. In our covenantal faith there are many layers to receiving the Sacraments. Instruction is a basic one. You can get marred without knowing anything about the. THEOLOGYof the body, but the more you know the more beautiful you see the Sacrament is and the less likely you are to fall into sexual sin. Of course a Sacrament isn't going to be withheld from a child who can't memorize. Most parishes have a minimum requirement for education before the Sacraments can be received.[b] Its all about holiness.[/b] Btw typing on my phone sorry for errors.[/background][/size][/font][/color] [/quote] i definitely understand the education part...but i think it is just as important that a child have a love and holy devotion to the Eucharist that can be nurtured. many times, a child memorizes, goes through first communion/first reconciliation, and then doesn't darken the door of the church until confirmation time (if it doesn't happen with communion/reconciliation). btw i'm drinking, so sorry for any spelling errors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1341801280' post='2453745'] Well, alright then! I agree, it'd be awesome to know them. But I think a lot of people have much more important things to work on on their way to heaven (even if, as some say, it wouldn't take long to learn them—for some of us, it would take an incredibly long time). And what about the illiterate? And the terribly undereducated but heroically faithful? And what, really, about the "little children"? I just don't think the purpose of catechesis is list-making. It's about forming a person in relationship to God. I once took a class from a rabbi who told a story about a bunch of yeshiva boys who were dissing a little old Sephardi woman for not knowing as much as the big important yeshiva boys. The rabbi interrupted their arrogant festivities to chide them: "That little old woman has more fear of Heaven in her little finger than you boys have in your whole bodies!" That shut them up. [/quote] Divine Revelation is pretty much par for the course to getting to heaven. Lists make things easy to memorize, in order to, as I said earlier, internalize them so we may become holy. Head knowledge becomes heart knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341801379' post='2453746'] it's not either you have a relationship with Christ or you know that whole list. it's both/and. [/quote] Yeah, I get it. I just think the reason some people have responded defensively to the statement "your catechesis has failed you" is because that is a really strong statement. I don't think catechesis is ALL about memorizing stuff or making lists. My personal response to this post was that it glorifies intellectualizing faith and diminishes the simple faith of the heart. I understand the two aren't mutually exclusive. I just feel that telling people "your catechesis has failed you" if you have a bad memory or went to a public school or whatever is obviously going to be perceived as "you're a bad Catholic". And that's harsh. (Though, I understand, Brother Adam, it isn't what you said. It just seems clear to me that's how it would be received by those whose faith is more heart-based than head-based.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1341801952' post='2453757'] Yeah, I get it. I just think the reason some people have responded defensively to the statement "your catechesis has failed you" is because that is a really strong statement. I don't think catechesis is ALL about memorizing stuff or making lists. My personal response to this post was that it glorifies intellectualizing faith and diminishes the simple faith of the heart. I understand the two aren't mutually exclusive. I just feel that telling people "your catechesis has failed you" if you have a bad memory or went to a public school or whatever is obviously going to be perceived as "you're a bad Catholic". And that's harsh. (Though, I understand, Brother Adam, it isn't what you said. It just seems clear to me that's how it would be received by those whose faith is more heart-based than head-based.) [/quote] oh, i hear ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriela Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341801806' post='2453752'] btw i'm drinking, so sorry for any spelling errors. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341801806' post='2453752'] [color=#222222][font='Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)] i definitely understand the education part...but i think it is just as important that a child have a love and holy devotion to the Eucharist that can be nurtured. many times, a child memorizes, goes through first communion/first reconciliation, and then doesn't darken the door of the church until confirmation time (if it doesn't happen with communion/reconciliation). btw i'm drinking, so sorry for any spelling errors. [/quote] I agree. The problem of the past 40 years is we threw the content out and the love of the Eucharist went with it. Just ask Pelosi(oops did I say that?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 [quote name='curiousing' timestamp='1341802066' post='2453762'] [/quote] tbh, i'm impressed that what i wrote is as coherent as it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 pardon my spelling errors, i'm riding a llama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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