Opinions/help For A Family Situation

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341808282' post='2453813']
The problem today is that ANY sharing of truth, no matter how much love is put into it, is labeled as hate, so I just ignore any time the "hate" word is thrown around.
[/quote]
I understand where you're coming from on that, but I still disagree with what you consider to be loving in some of the situations discussed here. I don't think it's necessary to deny someone's existence or dignity because they are living in sin; I think, rather, that we show that person love while showing them Truth.

Perhaps we're just different schools of thought, but I've never known a single story of sainthood to include such abrasive, unloving treatment of another child of God.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1341808581' post='2453814']
I understand where you're coming from on that, but I still disagree with what you consider to be loving in some of the situations discussed here. I don't think it's necessary to deny someone's existence or dignity because they are living in sin; I think, rather, that we show that person love while showing them Truth.

Perhaps we're just different schools of thought, but I've never known a single story of sainthood to include such abrasive, unloving treatment of another child of God.
[/quote]

1 Corinthians 5, written by ST Paul (DR, courtesy [url="http://www.awmach.net"]www.awmach.net[/url]):

1 It is absolutely heard that there is fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathens: that one should have his father's wife.
2 And you are puffed up and have not rather mourned: that he might be taken away from among you that hath done this deed.
3 I indeed, absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged, as though I were present, him that hath so done,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus:
5 To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump?
7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.
8 Therefore, let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness: but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in an epistle not to keep company with fornicators.
10 I mean not with the fornicators of this world or with the covetous or the extortioners or the servers of idols: otherwise you must needs go out of this world.
11 But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator or covetous or a server of idols or a railer or a drunkard or an extortioner: with such a one, not so much as to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not you judge them that are within?
13 For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Norseman82

[Cherie]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341792061' post='2453656']
If this was me and my parent, I make it clear that as long as he/she was living with someone outside of marriage, their grandchildren will not visit, which basically means me too. And that if he/she comes to visit, his/her housemate cannot.
[/quote]

This is where it gets especially tricky and part of what I need help for. This man is a "nice" enough guy...he knows my mom and her family very well, was good friends with my uncle. They grew up in the same small (VERY small!) town. All the things my husband and I said about their situation being morally wrong was said to him too so he knows how we feel. He's not Catholic (Christian, no particular denomination, but his own mom was vehemently anti-Catholic) though he doesn't share his mother's anti-Catholic views. He's asked me for books and such to help him learn about the Faith, of which I have a ton since I was in a convent for five years. So we've already started out interacting and suddenly NOT interacting with him seems to me like it would send the wrong message. My mom was very pained by our lack of contact over those months that I mentioned and he pleaded with me to keep up my relationship with her as she was suffering so much from not having it anymore. He basically begged us to visit her and offered to leave the area for the weekend in order for us to visit. That didn't sit well with me as a good example...the "good Catholic" running someone out of town just so I could visit my mom in good conscience? I just didn't think that would have been a good way to endear someone to the Church. And I'm not going to ignore a plea to help my mom. Since they clearly know our stance on their situation, I thought it would be ok for us to visit...with the stipulation we'd never be able to stay overnight while they are living together unmarried. So we have already visited there, and they here. So...whether I was wrong or right in allowing that, it is what it is now. :/

I do NOT want my children growing up thinking that lifestyle is acceptable. Thankfully my mom has been discussing "making things right"... getting married again in the Church once she is in a position to be able to. ("Thankfully" in the sense that it would not be an immoral situation like the one they have now...whether it's a good idea to start a fourth marriage [though technically a first one since the other three were considered invalid] is another story.)

So with all THAT info...what do y'all think? Advice?

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341809724' post='2453816']
This is where it gets especially tricky and part of what I need help for. This man is a "nice" enough guy...he knows my mom and her family very well, was good friends with my uncle. They grew up in the same small (VERY small!) town. All the things my husband and I said about their situation being morally wrong was said to him too so he knows how we feel. He's not Catholic (Christian, no particular denomination, but his own mom was vehemently anti-Catholic) though he doesn't share his mother's anti-Catholic views. He's asked me for books and such to help him learn about the Faith, of which I have a ton since I was in a convent for five years. So we've already started out interacting and suddenly NOT interacting with him seems to me like it would send the wrong message. My mom was very pained by our lack of contact over those months that I mentioned and he pleaded with me to keep up my relationship with her as she was suffering so much from not having it anymore. He basically begged us to visit her and offered to leave the area for the weekend in order for us to visit. That didn't sit well with me as a good example...the "good Catholic" running someone out of town just so I could visit my mom in good conscience? I just didn't think that would have been a good way to endear someone to the Church. And I'm not going to ignore a plea to help my mom. Since they clearly know our stance on their situation, I thought it would be ok for us to visit...with the stipulation we'd never be able to stay overnight while they are living together unmarried. So we have already visited there, and they here. So...whether I was wrong or right in allowing that, it is what it is now. :/

I do NOT want my children growing up thinking that lifestyle is acceptable. Thankfully my mom has been discussing "making things right"... getting married again in the Church once she is in a position to be able to. ("Thankfully" in the sense that it would not be an immoral situation like the one they have now...whether it's a good idea to start a fourth marriage [though technically a first one since the other three were considered invalid] is another story.)

So with all THAT info...what do y'all think? Advice?
[/quote]
I think you're acting well. And I think you're an awesome daughter, wife and mother for setting such a good example -- for being concerned for the spiritual welfare of all involved. Many prayers.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341809724' post='2453816']
This is where it gets especially tricky and part of what I need help for. This man is a "nice" enough guy...he knows my mom and her family very well, was good friends with my uncle. They grew up in the same small (VERY small!) town. All the things my husband and I said about their situation being morally wrong was said to him too so he knows how we feel. He's not Catholic (Christian, no particular denomination, but his own mom was vehemently anti-Catholic) though he doesn't share his mother's anti-Catholic views. He's asked me for books and such to help him learn about the Faith, of which I have a ton since I was in a convent for five years. So we've already started out interacting and suddenly NOT interacting with him seems to me like it would send the wrong message. My mom was very pained by our lack of contact over those months that I mentioned and he pleaded with me to keep up my relationship with her as she was suffering so much from not having it anymore. He basically begged us to visit her and offered to leave the area for the weekend in order for us to visit. That didn't sit well with me as a good example...the "good Catholic" running someone out of town just so I could visit my mom in good conscience? I just didn't think that would have been a good way to endear someone to the Church. And I'm not going to ignore a plea to help my mom. Since they clearly know our stance on their situation, I thought it would be ok for us to visit...with the stipulation we'd never be able to stay overnight while they are living together unmarried. So we have already visited there, and they here. So...whether I was wrong or right in allowing that, it is what it is now. :/

I do NOT want my children growing up thinking that lifestyle is acceptable. Thankfully my mom has been discussing "making things right"... getting married again in the Church once she is in a position to be able to. ("Thankfully" in the sense that it would not be an immoral situation like the one they have now...whether it's a good idea to start a fourth marriage [though technically a first one since the other three were considered invalid] is another story.)

So with all THAT info...what do y'all think? Advice?
[/quote]

If he is truly interested in learning about the faith, that might be an opportunity to have a "poop or get off the pot" moment with him - meaning that you can use this as an opportunity to say that the Catholic Church is opposed to his behavior, and if he wants any future in the Church he needs to stop acting in such a manner. Then see what he does.

[Papist]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1341800953' post='2453737']
But on the other hand, you could meet in neutral territory for lunch.
[/quote]

Absolutely. I was more so referring to visiting them at their house. Also, I could go visit alone. I can process that situation properly. It would be my children that I would not want to witness b/c they would not process it properly, and would ask questions. This would force me to have a conversation that is beyond their maturity and could hurt their view of their grandma/grandpa.

[Papist]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341803240' post='2453773']
Oh come on now, as a Catholic you should know that certain sins are more serious than others. That is a very CatholicinSD type of emotional argument.

Maybe the reason that we are in the mess we are in today with "Catholics" accepting same-sex marriage is that we're NOT taking a hard enough stand on such behavior, but instead
[/quote]

Please help me here. How is it our Christian obligation to severe the relationship with the mother in this situation? And that by not doing so is giving legitimacy to the sin? Keep in mind, we are not talking about a college friend. We are talking about a mother.

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341803402' post='2453774']
Who says that by refusing to giving legitimacy to a wrong arrangement one is being hateful? That type of statement is straight out of the secular playbook. Please don't be duped by the secular anti-Christian phrasebook.
[/quote]

No. That statement is straight out of the Bible. I believe turning your back on your mother is not only un-Christian, but is the easy and cowardly way out. How did Christ treat the prostitutes and tax collectors, which he was ridiculed for doing?

[Papist]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1341804512' post='2453784']
Love the sinner, hate the sin is a fairly modern concept which has nurtured sinners in their sin by not being told they are wrong. IMO. I do beleive Jesus loved sinners as he died for them, but he also in his ministry told sinners to " go forth and sin no more " I doubt he would have said I love you and will still love you even if you persist in sin, but hey, I am gonna hate that sin fer sure! I think his message was clear, sin no more. We know as catholics we can receive the sacrament of Absolution and Penance, but we also know we are to detest our sin and firmly resolve with the help of His grace to sin no more. So turning a blind eye too a sinner, or welcoming them in your home with full knowledge of their sin and not admonishing them , well that would just be enabling them in the sin.

ed
[/quote]

I believe you are going beyond the situation of the OP. You are arguing as if CM is inviting her mom and partner over for dinner to celebrate their relationship and living arrangements.

Also, Christ does not stop loving us even if we go and sin more.

[Papist]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1341809724' post='2453816']
This is where it gets especially tricky and part of what I need help for. This man is a "nice" enough guy...he knows my mom and her family very well, was good friends with my uncle. They grew up in the same small (VERY small!) town. All the things my husband and I said about their situation being morally wrong was said to him too so he knows how we feel. He's not Catholic (Christian, no particular denomination, but his own mom was vehemently anti-Catholic) though he doesn't share his mother's anti-Catholic views. He's asked me for books and such to help him learn about the Faith, of which I have a ton since I was in a convent for five years. So we've already started out interacting and suddenly NOT interacting with him seems to me like it would send the wrong message. My mom was very pained by our lack of contact over those months that I mentioned and he pleaded with me to keep up my relationship with her as she was suffering so much from not having it anymore. He basically begged us to visit her and offered to leave the area for the weekend in order for us to visit. That didn't sit well with me as a good example...the "good Catholic" running someone out of town just so I could visit my mom in good conscience? I just didn't think that would have been a good way to endear someone to the Church. And I'm not going to ignore a plea to help my mom. Since they clearly know our stance on their situation, I thought it would be ok for us to visit...with the stipulation we'd never be able to stay overnight while they are living together unmarried. So we have already visited there, and they here. So...whether I was wrong or right in allowing that, it is what it is now. :/

I do NOT want my children growing up thinking that lifestyle is acceptable. Thankfully my mom has been discussing "making things right"... getting married again in the Church once she is in a position to be able to. ("Thankfully" in the sense that it would not be an immoral situation like the one they have now...whether it's a good idea to start a fourth marriage [though technically a first one since the other three were considered invalid] is another story.)

So with all THAT info...what do y'all think? Advice?
[/quote]

I believe you are on the right track. Though spending the night is a tough call, which I don't believe I would have done. I would opt for a hotel, and my children would not be with me. Don't discount the effectiveness of your actions. When you told them the Church's(which is yours too) position in their situation, did they agree with it, or think the Church is wrong? If they think you are right, I would ask them what is preventing him or her from moving out? I'd suggest then perhaps they set a deadline for one to move out. I'd also suggest they talk to a priest and that your mom's friend enter RCIA. Tell him RCIA is a good way to learn more about the Catholic faith with others just like him, and if he as any questions if can ask you. Perhaps our mom can join him in RCIA.

[Papist]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1341806360' post='2453798']
Someone suggested Christ would stop loving someone because they sinned ? I must have missed that post. I also must have missed teh hatred, I did see people explaining certain truths about sin and giving opinions, but I must have skimmed over the hatred, well except in your post...

ed
[/quote]

[quote]Love the sinner, hate the sin is a fairly modern concept which has nurtured sinners in their sin by not being told they are wrong. IMO. I do beleive Jesus loved sinners as he died for them, but he also in his ministry told sinners to " go forth and sin no more " [b]I doubt he would have said I love you and will still love you even if you persist in sin[/b], but hey, I am gonna hate that sin fer sure! I think his message was clear, sin no more. We know as catholics we can receive the sacrament of Absolution and Penance, but we also know we are to detest our sin and firmly resolve with the help of His grace to sin no more. So turning a blind eye too a sinner, or welcoming them in your home with full knowledge of their sin and not admonishing them , well that would just be enabling them in the sin.

ed [/quote]

[Papist]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341809722' post='2453815']
1 Corinthians 5, written by ST Paul (DR, courtesy [url="http://www.awmach.net"]www.awmach.net[/url]):

1 It is absolutely heard that there is fornication among you and such fornication as the like is not among the heathens: that one should have his father's wife.
2 And you are puffed up and have not rather mourned: that he might be taken away from among you that hath done this deed.
3 I indeed, absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged, as though I were present, him that hath so done,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, you being gathered together and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus:
5 To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know you not that a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump?
7 Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new paste, as you are unleavened. For Christ our pasch is sacrificed.
8 Therefore, let us feast, not with the old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness: but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in an epistle not to keep company with fornicators.
10 I mean not with the fornicators of this world or with the covetous or the extortioners or the servers of idols: otherwise you must needs go out of this world.
11 But now I have written to you, not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator or covetous or a server of idols or a railer or a drunkard or an extortioner: with such a one, not so much as to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them that are without? Do not you judge them that are within?
13 For them that are without, God will judge. Put away the evil one from among yourselves.
[/quote]

It is not that your point is not understood. The fact this is a mother/daughter relationship here is important.


"Honor your father and your mother, that you may have a long life in the land the LORD your God is giving you" --Exodus 20:12
"Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy" --Matthew 5:7

[Cherie]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341833896' post='2453847']


I believe you are on the right track. Though spending the night is a tough call, which I don't believe I would have done. I would opt for a hotel, and my children would not be with me. Don't discount the effectiveness of your actions. When you told them the Church's(which is yours too) position in their situation, did they agree with it, or think the Church is wrong? If they think you are right, I would ask them what is preventing him or her from moving out? I'd suggest then perhaps they set a deadline for one to move out. I'd also suggest they talk to a priest and that your mom's friend enter RCIA. Tell him RCIA is a good way to learn more about the Catholic faith with others just like him, and if he as any questions if can ask you. Perhaps our mom can join him in RCIA.
[/quote]

No, no...we did NOT spend the night, just day visits. Not spending the night is a boundary I have chosen to make; while they're living together unmarried I do not think it is something we can do. If we needed to spend the night we would stay at a hotel, even with that being my childhood home and having my old bedroom open.

Thankfully my children are too young to understand; my oldest isn't even two yet. I pray the situation has resolved in a GOOD outcome before they're old enough to understand.

Thank you...RCIA is a great idea!!

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341674132' post='2453127']
Obvious question: why doesn't your husband handle his father so you don't have to?

Although I wouldn't cut your mother off completely, another option would be to simply not visit them at her "house", especially with children. If you want to meet her, invite her to your house or at a neutral location; you also have the option of not inviting her fornication partner. I have a cousin who is in a SS relationship; if she brings her "partner" along to family gatherings, I will talk with my cousin and give her a hug, but I do not acknowledge the "partner".
[/quote]

This is bad bad bad. I have a niece in an SSA relationship. The girl is very nice, polite, and respectful. I treat her the same way, greet her with a smile when I see her and give her a big hug. They know I do not approve of their relationship, but I make it very obvious I love[i] them. [/i] Jesus does not reject anyone. He rejects sin. We are called to be like Him. How can we do less?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1341838620' post='2453871']
They know I do not approve of their relationship, but I make it very obvious I love[i] them. [/i] [/quote]

Not enough props in the world.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1341803016' post='2453771']

Do you also believe it was wrong for me to not attend their "committment" ceremony?
[/quote]

Nope, not at all. I would not have attended either, since to me its meaningless. On the other hand, simple courtesy IS NEVER WRONG, because all humans are worthy of respect and human dignity.