The Silencing Of Christians On The Matter Of Homosexuality

[Groo the Wanderer]

bring on the fire and brimstone. its time

[stevil]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341777563' post='2453575']
From these responses I can tell that we are on two completely different pages.
[/quote]
Agreed.
For us to get value out of a discussion on topics where we hold opposing views we need the following:
1. Mutual respect
2. Desire to listen and to attempt to understand
3. Search for common ground

I feel, thus far we are doing 1 and 2 fine.
With regards to common ground, I guess it is about discovering the changes that are possible, depending on what our purpose is in this debate.
Maybe it is to better understand people with opposing views, maybe it is to challenge our own ideas or maybe it is to convince our opponent to change?
We both live within society, we cohabitate under some laws (governmental), we both have opinions on what those laws should be.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341777563' post='2453575']
First of all, being a Catholic I believe that God endowed EVERY human being with a special human dignity which in turn makes us above animal (in other words God made every human being in his image and likeness).
[/quote]
Now onto our differences.
I don't believe in any gods. I don't believe we are more special than other animals. I do have more sympathy for humans because I am human.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341777563' post='2453575']
So, weather a person is loved by human beings or not doesn't lessen their dignity because that child was created by God and is loved by God. This said Abortion is (in my eyes and many other's eyes) murder of one of his very special creations.
[/quote]
I understand, recognise and respect that this is your view of abortion.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341777563' post='2453575']
You also mentioned above that is its accepted by everyone. This is really not true. half of America is against it and Ireland, the Philippines and many Arab nations have laws protecting the unborn and many religions are opposed to it as well.
[/quote]
What I meant, was that for the most part people are not sufficiently motivated to respond with violence. If we see a pregnant woman being violently attacked on the street, many of us will intervene and will act with violence against the attacker. If we see a pregnant woman walk into an abortion clinic, the vast majority of us will respect her and allow her to go through with the abortion. Life goes on for the rest of us, society does not become dangerous for us. Our own survival is not threatened.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341777563' post='2453575']
In response to what you said about it not harming society, that is also false. With abortion legal in many country's places like Japan, Russia, China and many European counties are not going to be able to replace generations. Specifically in china and japan, there will not be enough women for the men.
[/quote]
It will be interesting to see what the future holds for China, having a cultural preference for male children and coupled with the government supported one child rule, this certainly has resulted in infanticide of female offspring and an unbalance of male to female ratio. If the government hadn't had a one child policy then this would not be the case, government intervention has caused the issue here. In better educated societies we tend to value female offspring just as much as male. I myself have two lovely little girls, I have no regrets not having sons.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1341783724' post='2453616']

1. I don't put value on an entity based on its ability to produce (original) art.
2. I don't deem my own life in threat when a mother decides to have an abortion. None of my friends or alliances are in threat either. I don't see society going to war over this, hence I will not get caught up in this war. I don't see abortion as a threat to my survival.
[/quote]1- Art is just one example of the difference in the the cognitive and thinking abilities between humans and all other known animals. Humans create and value aesthetics and can discuss ethics
2- you gave a perfect example of what I consider to be the danger to society. Humans limiting themselves to selfish and immediate consequences. That rejects the value of a human unless it can be defended by purely utilitarian benigit to society. We aren't ants or bees. A singer or painter adds as much to society as a doctor or garbage collector.

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341785454' post='2453625']
2- you gave a perfect example of what I consider to be the danger to society. Humans limiting themselves to selfish and immediate consequences. That rejects the value of a human unless it can be defended by purely utilitarian benigit to society. We aren't ants or bees. A singer or painter adds as much to society as a doctor or garbage collector.
[/quote]
There is a difference between being selfish and seeing only immediate consequences.
I believe we are all selfish and we act in a way that selfishly benefits us.
I could go on to explain how selfishness leads us to want laws against murder, theft etc and how selfishness leads us to act in a way where we gain trust from our society, behave kindly to others and desire to influence our society in a way that we want society to treat us.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341785454' post='2453625']
1- Art is just one example of the difference in the the cognitive and thinking abilities between humans and all other known animals. Humans create and value aesthetics and can discuss ethics
2- you gave a perfect example of what I consider to be the danger to society. Humans limiting themselves to selfish and immediate consequences. That rejects the value of a human unless it can be defended by purely utilitarian benigit to society. We aren't ants or bees. A singer or painter adds as much to society as a doctor or garbage collector.
[/quote]

People can also laugh and have these kinds of discussions. Just sayin'...

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1341786536' post='2453628']

There is a difference between being selfish and seeing only immediate consequences.
I believe we are all selfish and we act in a way that selfishly benefits us.
I could go on to explain how selfishness leads us to want laws against murder, theft etc and how selfishness leads us to act in a way where we gain trust from our society, behave kindly to others and desire to influence our society in a way that we want society to treat us.
[/quote]I don't disagree that selfishness and immediate consequences are important and necessary considerations. But long term consequences to both the person and society are equally important.

I would propose that abortion and homosexuality and unmarried parents and easy divorce and single parenting are all results of too much selfishness to the point that responsibility and obligations towards others barely register as a factor in decision making . I think the fruits of these societal choices are borne by kids who are less happy, more stressed, are more often raised in poverty, and lack examples of empathy, commitment, obligation for others, as well as self responsibility. The long term effect on society will be extremely negative.

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341788365' post='2453636']
I don't disagree that selfishness and immediate consequences are important and necessary considerations. But long term consequences to both the person and society are equally important.
[/quote]
Possibly my previous post may have been misunderstood.
I wasn't arguing for immediate consequences, I was suggesting that selfishness can consider the long term effect on society.

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341788365' post='2453636']
I would propose that abortion and homosexuality and unmarried parents and easy divorce and single parenting are all results of too much selfishness to the point that responsibility and obligations towards others barely register as a factor in decision making . I think the fruits of these societal choices are borne by kids who are less happy, more stressed, are more often raised in poverty, and lack examples of empathy, commitment, obligation for others, as well as self responsibility. The long term effect on society will be extremely negative.
[/quote]
There is a whole heap of stuff lumped into that argument.
Lets try and get back onto topic, Gay marriage.
Obviously we disagree on what is right and wrong, but we share an issue of cohabitating with people of many different moral beliefs. Ultimately I assume we want a stable and safe society, so this is a worthy common goal we can debate towards.

How is it that two people whom are in love and have a desire to share their lives together as a "family" how is this beneficial to society if these two people are male/female but detrimental to society if these two people have the same gender?

[Annie12]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1341786536' post='2453628']
There is a difference between being selfish and seeing only immediate consequences.
I believe we are all selfish and we act in a way that selfishly benefits us.
I could go on to explain how selfishness leads us to want laws against murder, theft etc and how selfishness leads us to act in a way where we gain trust from our society, behave kindly to others and desire to influence our society in a way that we want society to treat us.
[/quote]
[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]You see this thinking comes from Hobbes who thought we all do everything because we want good feelings. However the only people who would believe that are people who don't know how to love selflessly. In my opinion it's absurd to think that humans are nothing more than selfish animals. It's not a coincidence that science can not tell how the big bang happened or create a laboratory human or even understand (what many believe to be) the miraculous image of our lady of Guadalupe. It's because God exists! He created a natural law. Science is just the understanding of what God has created and can never explain the spiritual because God does that for us. And going back to the selfish thing. When you look at many people through out history there have been many people who have been compleately selfless. The most famous one is Jesus Christ in dying on the cross after being beaten and abused. But Any Martyr will show a selfless love for God that they would give up their own life for God. A line has to been drawn in the sand between what is selfish and what is not.Here is the definition.[/font]
[quote]
[b] self·ish[/b]

[color=#333333][font=verdana][size=3][left]  [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=3][left] [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]sel-fish[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]][/font] [/left][/size][/font][/color]
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[color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]devoted[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]to[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]or[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]caring[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]only[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]for[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]oneself;[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]concerned[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]primarily [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]with[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]one's[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]own[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]interests,[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]benefits,[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]welfare,[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]etc.,[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]regardless[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]of[/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left] [/left][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=verdana][size=1][left]others.[/left][/size][/font][/color][/quote]

On a daily basis people all over the world do things for the benefit of others. If they feel prideful about it than that is not good. Christianity teaches to eliminate all feelings/acts that would prevent us from knowing God and loving him. Basically Christianity teaches that to be with God and to be truly happy we must submit ourselves to God's will. Basically in our weakness we find our strength. We acknowledge that we need God and we strive for humility, charity, and Love. If we mess up we have a loving and merciful God who will give us another chance. This video might have a clearer way of saying the same thing.[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5DOeokjHlU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5DOeokjHlU[/url]

Now, you say life goes on for the rest of us even though abortion is legal and prevalent in many places in the world. I would counter this by saying slavery could fit into the same category or even some one who is being sexually abused. Life goes on in the world but it doesn't mean that sexually abusing someone isn't wrong or slavery isn't wrong. There is right and wrong. Black and white and there is no such thing as grey area.
Here is a pro life atheists website :[url="http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html"]http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html[/url]

Back to the Homosexual thing, Christians are being taken away their freedom of speech because the government is saying if you don't agree with "marriage equality" you are guilty of hate speech. This is very disturbing to me. Not only is the Government takings side on this matter but it is depriving Americans of their constitutional right to freedom of speech.

essentially "Marriage equality" is trying to create another "right' which has never existed in the entirety of human history. We all have the same rights here in the US as far as marriage goes. We all can get married!!! Now they want to stretch the boundaries and make it legal to marry the same gender. it seems to me that the same reasoning would make it fine to have as many wives or husbands as you want o marry at whatever age you want. Just like a good research paper has a structure to it, a good society does also. if we allow all these proposed things to take place, it effect our society in a very negative way, the results of which we have already began to see.

[Annie12]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1341789950' post='2453646']


How is it that two people whom are in love and have a desire to share their lives together as a "family" how is this beneficial to society if these two people are male/female but detrimental to society if these two people have the same gender?
[/quote]

Christianity teaches that we NEED to love EVERYONE! However, Marriage by nature is reserved for a Man and a woman. A woman and a woman could be to wonderful women but they can't do things and give to a romantic relationship in the way that men can do and vice versa. This especially goes for same sex parents.

[stevil]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341790107' post='2453648']
Back to the Homosexual thing, Christians are being taken away their freedom of speech because the government is saying if you don't agree with "marriage equality" you are guilty of hate speech. This is very disturbing to me. Not only is the Government takings side on this matter but it is depriving Americans of their constitutional right to freedom of speech.
[/quote]
I think the Westbro group are proving that the government of USA values the freedom of speech. These guys have won court cases with regards to their right to say whatever pleases them. Even if it is blatant hate.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341790107' post='2453648']
It seems to me that the same reasoning would make it fine to have as many wives or husbands as you want o marry at whatever age you want.
[/quote]
I am against laws that are against polygamy. I don't think that it is the government's place to tell a man he cannot have many wives or a woman she cannot have many husbands. Adults ought to be treated as adults and allowed to make their own choices as long as it does not make society unsafe.

With regards to age, I think we need to recognise that children are incapable of making mature and well informed decisions.

Edited July 8, 2012 by stevil

[stevil]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341790107' post='2453648']
Now, you say life goes on for the rest of us even though abortion is legal and prevalent in many places in the world. I would counter this by saying slavery could fit into the same category or even some one who is being sexually abused.
[/quote]
With regards to slavery, if we allow slavery, then we are at threat of becoming slaves ourselves. Slave also become part of society, they befriend, fall in love with, have children with members of society. The lines get very blurred and hence conflict and war is eventually inevitable.
With regards to sexual abuse, if we allow it, then we are at threat, our loved ones are at threat. We seek defence or retribution, society becomes unsafe quickly.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1341789950' post='2453646']
How is it that two people whom are in love and have a desire to share their lives together as a "family" how is this beneficial to society if these two people are male/female but detrimental to society if these two people have the same gender?
[/quote]it's the "family" part that is the definition. Society has interpreted and defined the normative family as multi-generational males and females procreating and sharing a life long commitment towards each other, their children, and their parents and related family. A family for long term stability in an society is more than just providing food and shelter for 18 years. Dismissing long term obligation for our parents, children, and blood relatives has already weakened society.

Easy divorce and single parents have already diminished long term family commitment and stability in people that are genetically related and would naturally tend to have concern for each other. A Same sex couple is not just as equal because both persons can't share genetics with the kids. The commitment may happen as an exception, but the relationship is based on the commitment of the couple. Society no longer expresses the long term commitment as necessary it even desirable. It's the kids and elderly that suffer.

[stevil]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341790493' post='2453649']
Marriage by nature is reserved for a Man and a woman.
[/quote]
This is a religious definition. In some countries supported by government.

I think of marriage as a commitment by consenting adults to share their lives with each other, to live together, to share financial security and risk, to share certain special legal privileges.
I understand this is a very different definition to the religious one.

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341790493' post='2453649']
A woman and a woman could be to wonderful women but they can't do things and give to a romantic relationship in the way that men can do and vice versa. This especially goes for same sex parents.
[/quote]
I'm not concerned with the specifics of what happens inside a marriage, especially when it comes to sexual activities or procreation. With regards to law, I am only concerned with whether it is dangerous for society, does law need to prevent it?

[stevil]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341791818' post='2453655']
A Same sex couple is not just as equal because both persons can't share genetics with the kids. The commitment may happen as an exception, but the relationship is based on the commitment of the couple. Society no longer expresses the long term commitment as necessary it even desirable. It's the kids and elderly that suffer.
[/quote]
If the problem is long term commitment based on genetic material then maybe adoption ought to be made illegal, across the board for all, not just homosexual couples but for everyone.

Of course I don't agree with this, adoption is great, it gives children without genetic parents the ability to be loved and cared for by adults whom want to care for and love them.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1341792418' post='2453658']
If the problem is long term commitment based on genetic material then maybe adoption ought to be made illegal, across the board for all, not just homosexual couples but for everyone.

Of course I don't agree with this, adoption is great, it gives children without genetic parents the ability to be loved and cared for by adults whom want to care for and love them.
[/quote]That's over-reaching the points i made. The point is societal expectation of life long commitment to your family, parents, and children. Adoption is bringing a child into that family with the full commitment. I agree adoption is great. My family has quite a few adopted kids, but our attitude is that it's not just parents who adopt, the family adopts.

Humanity has continually improved it's lot sine we strove to live better than the local caves. We've done so by having goals that are the best we can conceive and improving the status quo for immediate benefit and long term benefit. In that perspective, redifining a family as the temp union of two or a few aduts and denying the humanity at conception that we have witnessed and fully understand, is a step backwards in the evolution of humanity.