Lil Red Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 i still don't know how this fits in with self-defense and the like, because i thought that the Church doesn't preach absolute pacifism, right? or i guess, pacifism on a national level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) I know that there are allowances for war and the like, but there are very strict parameters for what is and isn't considered a "just war." I'm speaking more of emotional defense (broken relationships/friendships, bullying, harrassment, oppression). My personal understanding was that we are allowed to stand up against unfair treatment that is an offense to our God-given dignity, as long as we don't do so as a form of retaliation or vengeance. But if we're trying to love as Jesus loves, He basically let everyone walk on Him. It doesn't make sense and it offends my sense of justice, but I don't know what the correct response is... Edited July 5, 2012 by MissyP89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1341514519' post='2452560'] I know that there are allowances for war and the like, but there are very strict parameters for what is and isn't considered a "just war." I'm speaking more of emotional defense (broken relationships/friendships, bullying, harrassment, oppression). My personal understanding was that we are allowed to stand up against unfair treatment that is an offense to our God-given dignity, as long as we don't do so as a form of retaliation or vengeance. But if we're trying to love as Jesus loves, He basically let everyone walk on Him. It doesn't make sense and it offends my sense of justice, but I don't know what the correct response is... [/quote] Jesus overturned tables in the temple. He didn't let EVERYONE walk on Him. There's a difference between dying on the cross for the salvation of the world, and allowing someone to abuse you so that you might "love as Christ loved". Love does not always equal submission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 We are to love our neighbors AS ourselves. If you don't first love yourself you can't love anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1341515617' post='2452562'] Jesus overturned tables in the temple. He didn't let EVERYONE walk on Him. There's a difference between dying on the cross for the salvation of the world, and allowing someone to abuse you so that you might "love as Christ loved". Love does not always equal submission. [/quote] so perhaps it will not only vary how each person loves, but the approach that one person will take to love another? i mean, some people need to be loved with a hug, and others will a swift kick in the butt, if you know what i mean, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341516235' post='2452564'] so perhaps it will not only vary how each person loves, but the approach that one person will take to love another? i mean, some people need to be loved with a hug, and others will a swift kick in the butt, if you know what i mean, lol [/quote] Oh yeah -- for sure. I've been shown a lot of tough and tender love by individual people. Those who are willing to show me both in the appropriate moments, I believe, love me the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Hmmmm. I like that. Love can mean different things at different times. I think of a drug addict. Sometimes loving them means stopping the flow of cash and kicking them out until they get clean. Ditto for a cheating spouse. Or cutting of contact with a toxic friend. Thoughts on this? Am I on the right track? Someone stop me if I'm wrong, or if you have something different to suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1341516598' post='2452567'] Hmmmm. I like that. Love can mean different things at different times. I think of a drug addict. Sometimes loving them means stopping the flow of cash and kicking them out until they get clean. Ditto for a cheating spouse. Or cutting of contact with a toxic friend. Thoughts on this? Am I on the right track? Someone stop me if I'm wrong, or if you have something different to suggest. [/quote] Yep. All lessons in love learned by both parties over time and with experience. It's pretty common sense when you stop to think of it. God has written love on each of our hearts. When we seek, we find. Wherever God is, there let us also be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1341516584' post='2452566'] Oh yeah -- for sure. I've been shown a lot of tough and tender love by individual people. Those who are willing to show me both in the appropriate moments, I believe, love me the best. [/quote] i think this is how evangelization/conversion is also best conducted...person to person. Leave the corporate nature of evangelism up to the Church through the Pope, bishops, and priests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I totally reject the idea that Jesus let anyone "walk all over" Him. Allowing someone to walk all over you is not good for EITHER person; therefore, it is not the correct way to love someone at all. I think that Jesus himself showed love in different ways depending upon the situation; whether it was making the Pharisees look like idiots or showing compassion to the woman getting stoned, it was appropriate to the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1341520306' post='2452590'] I totally reject the idea that Jesus let anyone "walk all over" Him. Allowing someone to walk all over you is not good for EITHER person; therefore, it is not the correct way to love someone at all. [/quote] How do you explain the Passion then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1341520306' post='2452590'] I totally reject the idea that Jesus let anyone "walk all over" Him. Allowing someone to walk all over you is not good for EITHER person; therefore, it is not the correct way to love someone at all. I think that Jesus himself showed love in different ways depending upon the situation; whether it was making the Pharisees look like idiots or showing compassion to the woman getting stoned, it was appropriate to the situation. [/quote] [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1341525135' post='2452633'] How do you explain the Passion then? [/quote] And there lies the crux -- no pun intended -- of this thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianthephysicist Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 I'm struggling with a way to express this, but this basically comes down to a balance between protection and trust. As sons and daughters of God, how do we protect ourselves and others from hurtful people? or from those trying to take away our dignity? Love can only develop when we trust another person enough to allow them to become closer to us, but at the same time, the closer someone is, the more they can hurt us. Often, we have trust the person enough to put ourselves in a vulnerable position (whether physically, emotionally, sexually, etc.) to give the person an opportunity to grow more in love and trust. How can we find that balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted July 5, 2012 Share Posted July 5, 2012 [quote name='jaime' timestamp='1341525135' post='2452633'] How do you explain the Passion then? [/quote] [quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1341525888' post='2452644'] And there lies the crux -- no pun intended -- of this thread... [/quote] The Passion in my view of how all this is being expressed, would be more akin to organ donation. He gave of Himself (all of Himself) to save the lives of those He loved. He didn't let people walk all over Him, but sacrificed His life for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissyP89 Posted July 5, 2012 Author Share Posted July 5, 2012 Balance... Vulnerability is necessary to any relationship, be it a marriage, a friendship or even familial. We risk emotional sacrifice and hurt. That can't be avoided. I think the question of protecting others is a lot easier to answer (at least for me). We're to protect the downtrodden in any way we can, whether it means helping to stock a shelter for abused women or lending a shoulder to someone who's being bullied. If someone close to us is putting themselves in a dangerous situation, I think we have a responsibility to reach out to them. It's up to them whether or not to accept help, and I don't believe we should take matters into our own hands if that help is refused. God gave us free will, and in some sense we need to allow others the freedom to make their own decisions, even if it will cause them pain. Now, as for ourselves, I only have a few loose thoughts. There's a song that says: "It's from the deepest wounds that beauty finds a place to bloom / and we will see before the end / that every broken piece is gathered in the Heart of Jesus / and what's lost will be found again." Love will hurt us and sometimes hurt deeply. If it doesn't hurt at some point, it isn't love. But I also believe that there is a point where we should step away for the sake of our own wellbeing. There's a profound difference between making sacrifice/suffering for love and being trampled upon. Balance comes from recognizing where the relationship is going, understanding your own and the other person's intentions, and knowing when that suffering for the other is either helping or hurting. At some point, suffering will either result in two full hearts or two broken ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now