Taxmaggedon: Coming January 2013

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341202407' post='2451377']
Sorry for speaking my mind. I just thought people would see that a president who's in favor of infanticite would use code language to get his agenda pushed onto the people. What I say is NOT "stupid" and should be listened to. I'm all for good care!!! But if obama makes the rules he WILL find a way to include abortion. We need to protect life! ITS NOT DESPOSABLE! Obama doesn't see why life in the womb is sacred so he is going to implament policies that he sees are right. He doesn't see. I feel it is very niave to arseume Obama is innocently trying to help people with their healthcare. Let me remind you that he is a politician. Why else would he be changing the way doctors get paid?? They seem fine righg now! This way is the best way to filter out doctors who don't do abortions. He can define what "quality of care mean"(and stick aborting as a requirement for doctor to practice medicine) and therefore weed out the pro-life doctors.

This is just my speculation based on Obama's past but until you read to 2000 page bill don't say what I say is stupid. When you say that I think of all the unborn babies that get torn limb from limb in the mothers womb ever second in the US.
[/quote]

Winchester was being sarcastic when he said your statement was stupid. He meant you had a good point.

We may very well get to the point that abortion training is required to practice medicine (God forbid it) but that's not what paying for quality means. The current system for paying doctors does not work well at all. It's bankrupting the United States! It's a fee-for-service system that encourages moving patients through like an arseembly line to max out reimbursement. Instead, doctors will now be reimbursed based on the results they get instead of the number of patients they see.

Only problem is, there is a limited supply of doctors and this could turn into a wait-time issue. But in theory it's a much better approach to paying for healthcare.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1341203385' post='2451379']
We may very well get to the point that abortion training is required to practice medicine (God forbid it)
[/quote]
Who would have the power to compel that?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341202407' post='2451377']
Sorry for speaking my mind. I just thought people would see that a president who's in favor of infanticite would use code language to get his agenda pushed onto the people. What I say is NOT "stupid" and should be listened to. I'm all for good care!!! But if obama makes the rules he WILL find a way to include abortion. We need to protect life! ITS NOT DESPOSABLE! Obama doesn't see why life in the womb is sacred so he is going to implament policies that he sees are right. He doesn't see. I feel it is very niave to arseume Obama is innocently trying to help people with their healthcare. Let me remind you that he is a politician. Why else would he be changing the way doctors get paid?? They seem fine righg now! This way is the best way to filter out doctors who don't do abortions. He can define what "quality of care mean"(and stick aborting as a requirement for doctor to practice medicine) and therefore weed out the pro-life doctors.

This is just my speculation based on Obama's past but until you read to 2000 page bill don't say what I say is stupid. When you say that I think of all the unborn babies that get torn limb from limb in the mothers womb ever second in the US.
[/quote]
The State-worshiper was right. I was being sarcastic.

[4588686]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1341195157' post='2451339']
The Cuyahoga was certainly public property. Industry violated no laws in dumping their waste in the river, to the extent that it killed all life in the stretch between Cleveland and Akron. That's because their dumping was UNREGULATED.

You see, a company has one primary objective: make money. So of course they used the easiest, cheapest way to get rid of their waste. Exactly what incentive did they have to dispose of it in a safer, more expensive way way? The goodness of their cherubic little hearts? Their love for their fellow man? Give me a break. Everyone knew what was happening to the river. The people who lived on the river would always make jokes about "wow the river is shiny today." Because the topmost layer of filth was reflecting the sun as it floated along. Still these companies kept it up for decades because NOBODY could make them stop.

Even if the locals had organized a boycott it wouldn't have made a difference - because these were large (inter)national organizations and they had plenty of customers elsewhere who didn't give a carp about northeast Ohio.

But lucky for us the fascists in Washington decided to make them stop. Our saviors in the capital swooped in and regulated the carp out of them (since again they had ZERO incentive to self-regulate in a meaningful way).

It's more expensive, and it eats into profits. It allows the companies to reinvent themselves as community heroes (I'm looking at you Sherwin Williams) but if the regulations were relaxed they'd go right back to polluting the river. Because that's the whole point of their existence. Make more money. For now, the Evil Burdensome Fascist regulations make it more expensive to dump in the river, what with the huge fines. But barring regulation, there will never be a cheaper way for them to get rid of their waste than just throwing it out their back door.

The free market does not have human dignity as its primary object and that's where it breaks down. If given true 100% liberty, it can eat humans alive, for instance in the pornography industry. If men were angels it would work great. Again see the works of William Golding.

Right now it's popular to whine and moan about how the politicians stink, and they do stink at their jobs in many ways, but in other ways they have been extremely effective. In fact most scholars would agree that this is probably the best time in history for a human being to be alive, in terms of affordable access to food and healthcare, declining crime and war, and other measures of quality of life. And that's largely because humans have developed more effective ways of governing themselves and regulating the use of resources, not because of any magic performed by the free market.
[/quote]

You can see graffiti all over this town (Zenica) demanding that the local metal factory put fiddlers on its chimneys. The factory is owned by an Indian man currently living in the UK. The fiddlers have not been given. Probably because there is no free market incentive for an Indian billionair living in the UK to give the slightest duck about some Bosnians and their health. On the plus side, this factory did provide a market incentive for the rather large respratory wing of the local hospital. I guess unregulated industry works itself out in the end after all. Yay blind faith in markets!

Edited July 2, 2012 by Hasan

[4588686]

Strangely enough, Ive developed a chronic cough ever since getting here. Probably because my state worshiping body is continually choking on the sweet fumes of economic freedom.

To head off one rebuttal, obviously on a system level Bosnia is not a free market state. But the power of this particular local industry allows it to operate without fear of the state taking serious action against it. While on a system level Bosnia needs more free industry its important to remember that industry is not a benevolent force. It is a ruthless force and when you are talking about large, multinationals the power of the state is the only potential resort that ordionary people have. Bosnia needs more free industry but it also needs more effective, coherent government.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1341237023' post='2451443']
You can see graffiti all over this town (Zenica) demanding that the local metal factory put fiddlers on its chimneys. The factory is owned by an Indian man currently living in the UK. The fiddlers have not been given. Probably because there is no free market incentive for an Indian billionair living in the UK to give the slightest duck about some Bosnians and their health. On the plus side, this factory did provide a market incentive for the rather large respratory wing of the local hospital. I guess unregulated industry works itself out in the end after all. Yay blind faith in markets!
[/quote]
When property rights are not enforced, there is no free market. There is no right to harm the property of others.

How to deal with multinationals operating in a free market setting that benefit from corporatism in a different country (subsidy makes it easier for corporations to overcome economies of scale. Violence is how governments overcome this, and their actions on behalf of privately held companies is corporatism) is a serious and difficult question.

Do you think that the state is not just another ruthless corporate body intent on enlarging its power? Private companies seek profit, which comes in the form of money. Money is useful to the functionaries of the State, and private companies use it to purchase the power of the State. The more power you vest in the State, the more you diminish the power of the individual, the more private corporations will be able to use the State like a mercenary. There's no Utopia, so centralizing power in some regulatory body with a monopoly on legalized violence appears to me to be blind faith in just another ruthless corporate body. States are no less interested in profit than any other human organization, so I don't see the point in attempting to make them the final arbiter.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1341195157' post='2451339']
The Cuyahoga was certainly public property. Industry violated no laws in dumping their waste in the river, to the extent that it killed all life in the stretch between Cleveland and Akron. That's because their dumping was UNREGULATED.

You see, a company has one primary objective: make money. So of course they used the easiest, cheapest way to get rid of their waste. Exactly what incentive did they have to dispose of it in a safer, more expensive way way? The goodness of their cherubic little hearts? Their love for their fellow man? Give me a break. Everyone knew what was happening to the river. The people who lived on the river would always make jokes about "wow the river is shiny today." Because the topmost layer of filth was reflecting the sun as it floated along. Still these companies kept it up for decades because NOBODY could make them stop.

Even if the locals had organized a boycott it wouldn't have made a difference - because these were large (inter)national organizations and they had plenty of customers elsewhere who didn't give a carp about northeast Ohio.

But lucky for us the fascists in Washington decided to make them stop. Our saviors in the capital swooped in and regulated the carp out of them (since again they had ZERO incentive to self-regulate in a meaningful way).

It's more expensive, and it eats into profits. It allows the companies to reinvent themselves as community heroes (I'm looking at you Sherwin Williams) but if the regulations were relaxed they'd go right back to polluting the river. Because that's the whole point of their existence. Make more money. For now, the Evil Burdensome Fascist regulations make it more expensive to dump in the river, what with the huge fines. But barring regulation, there will never be a cheaper way for them to get rid of their waste than just throwing it out their back door.

The free market does not have human dignity as its primary object and that's where it breaks down. If given true 100% liberty, it can eat humans alive, for instance in the pornography industry. If men were angels it would work great. Again see the works of William Golding.

Right now it's popular to whine and moan about how the politicians stink, and they do stink at their jobs in many ways, but in other ways they have been extremely effective. In fact most scholars would agree that this is probably the best time in history for a human being to be alive, in terms of affordable access to food and healthcare, declining crime and war, and other measures of quality of life. And that's largely because humans have developed more effective ways of governing themselves and regulating the use of resources, not because of any magic performed by the free market.
[/quote]Maggie, you're half right.
Yes, the Free Market is not solely about human dignity, it's the efficient allocation of resources and effort to produce what people need want and desire.
Yes, the Government is not all about human dignity, it the efficienty allocation of 'public' resources and effort to produce whtat people need want and desire.
There can't ever be a social/economic system that is pure free market or pure government control. We have to have both to provide balances for the different aspects that allow a sophisticated economy to work. The realistic arguments are the practical limits and freedoms that each are allowed to weild within the societal framework.
The standard of living has improved because of entrepenourship fostered by and sometimes limited by, governmental policy and regulation. Both are needed. Too much limitation of or by either free market or government regulation aspect will collapse the entire system.
People need to pay attention to the votes they put in the ballot box and cash register.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Anomaly

[Annie12]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1341208898' post='2451403']

The State-worshiper was right. I was being sarcastic.
[/quote]
Sorry! I couldn't tell.After I posted my response I read your post again and was wondering if you were being sarcastic but wasn't sure. SORRY!!!!!!! MY BAD!!!!!!!!

[Annie12]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1341181065' post='2451271']
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Statianity/356040437750697
[/quote]
This is RAZLE DAZLE X 100000000000! LOVE the sarcasm of it!

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341242525' post='2451468']
Sorry! I couldn't tell.After I posted my response I read your post again and was wondering if you were being sarcastic but wasn't sure. SORRY!!!!!!! MY BAD!!!!!!!!
[/quote]The default Winnie translation is Sacarstic. But he is talented, so there is almost always an element of truth in his sarcasm.
(I'm fishing for a prop from Winnie.)

[Winchester]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1341242525' post='2451468']
Sorry! I couldn't tell.After I posted my response I read your post again and was wondering if you were being sarcastic but wasn't sure. SORRY!!!!!!! MY BAD!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
No apology necessary. I'm a big fan of not worshiping idols, even when the idols wear nice suits and can throw me in a cage for disagreeing, so anything I say defending the State is likely to be sarcastic.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1341243047' post='2451470']
The default Winnie translation is Sacarstic. But he is talented, so there is almost always an element of truth in his sarcasm.
(I'm fishing for a prop from Winnie.)
[/quote]
[img]http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/reminded+me+of+this.+NO+_ce2da2fef31de00b31e0886ee9b0e386.jpg[/img]