Hhs Upheld By Supreme Court

[Papist]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1341064842' post='2450822']
by that logic, do you still go for joy rides on tractors?
[/quote]

Oh. I understand your point now. That survey is bogus. Silly me

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1341005529' post='2450545']
The idea behind prohibiting you growing your own food was to compel you to buy.
[/quote]

Or as they would say in my neighborhood, "You need a jukebox".

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340968932' post='2450332']

[left][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][color=#333333]Whenever systems are being controlled by the government's than money and politics, issues will soon come up in universal health care. Rules will be placed on the doctors whether or not if they are able to perform expensive procedures/treatments on patients because of our debt issue. If doctors are limited to performing expensive [/color][/font][/left]
[left][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]procedures/treatments [/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]then patients will not be getting the best care as they can receive. I believe this would also have a very bad impact on the patient-doctor relationship. Also, this lack of freedom would deter many good men and women from becoming doctors, nurses, etc. [/font][/color]According to the Doctors Company survey, 60% of them believe that Obamacare will have a negative impact on overall patient care, [url="http://www.thedoctors.com/ecm/groups/public/@tdc/@web/documents/web_content/con_id_004676.pdf"]http://www.thedoctor...n_id_004676.pdf[/url][/left]
[/quote]

Can you list examples of doctors being forced not to provide care from canada, UK , france, etc? because i can think of thousands of cases like that yearly in the states when people did not have insurance, or their insurance company drops them the day they actually need care.


[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1340999741' post='2450473']
I know mostly everyone here is against socialized medicine but why? Does it work in some European countries?

I'm genuinely asking because I'm interested in the facts and legitimate criticism of said system. I'm pretty much against socialized medicine for philosophical, common sense reasons, but economically and such I've no idea why it's so "bad."
[/quote]

Considering the USA is basically the only developed country without some sort of socialized medicare, i would say that yes it works.





a big part of the resistance to a proper working system like canada's is "but with all these poor people actually being able to receive medical care, that makes the lines a bit longer for me!"

[Lil Red]

how accurate is that wait graph that's been making the rounds on facebook?

(I'm trying to find it right now)

[Lil Red]

aha, found it:
[img]https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599297_414760778565239_1260854771_n.jpg[/img]

[Lisa]

I went under the Canadian Ministry's website: [url="http://www.waittimes.net/Surgerydi/en/PublicMain.aspx?Type=0"]http://www.waittimes...ain.aspx?Type=0[/url]
Some of the numbers are slightly off, but most of them seem about right. One of the only ones that seemed quite off was breast cancer, which the website says occurs in 35 days. Knee replacement is 224 days, so it's almost as high as the chart. I don't know when the numbers were from, and it appears that the ministry has "target" dates they are working towards.

It would be interesting to find these numbers for the U.S. Just as a baseline (looking at an individual case), there was about a month wait for my mom's breast surgery in the midwest.

Here's something from a 2007 report: [url="http://getbetterhealth.com/wait-times-for-medical-care-how-the-us-actually-measures-up/2010.02.02"]http://getbetterhealth.com/wait-times-for-medical-care-how-the-us-actually-measures-up/2010.02.02[/url]

[quote][color=#333333][font=arial][size=3]* Canada had the highest percentage of patients (36%) who had to wait six days or more for an appointment with a doctor, but the United States had the second highest percentage (23%) who reported that they had to wait at least this long. New Zealand, Australia, Germany, and the U.K. all had substantially smaller numbers of people reporting waits of 6 days or longer. Canada and the United States, in that order, also had the lowest percentage of persons who said they could get an appointment with a doctor the same or next day.[/size][/font][/color]

[color=#333333][font=arial][size=3]* The United States had the largest percentage of persons (61%) who said that getting care on nights, weekends, or holidays, without going to the emergency room, was “very” or “somewhat” difficult. In Canada, it was 54%, and in the U.K, 38%. Germany did the best, with only 22% saying that it was difficult to get after-hours care.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=arial][size=3]
* The United States, though, scored well on physicians’ perceptions of how many patients experience long waits for diagnostic tests. 57% of physicians in the U.K, and 51% of Canadian physicians reported that their patients experienced long waits for diagnostic tests, compared to only 9% of U.S. physicians who reported the same.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=arial][size=3]
* The U.K (60%) and Canada (57%) had the highest numbers of persons who had to wait four weeks or more to get to see a specialist physician. In the U.S., only 23% reported a wait of four weeks or more for specialty care.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=arial][size=3]
* The U.S. also did very well on measures of wait times for non-emergency or elective surgery. Only 8% of surveyed patients in the United States reported a wait time of four months or more for elective surgery, compared to 33% in Canada and 41% in the U.K. Germany scored the best, with only 6% reporting a long wait for elective surgery.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=arial][size=3]
[/quote][/size][/font][/color]

Edited June 30, 2012 by Lisa

[Papist]

Hospitals kicking patients to the curb b/c they do not have insurance is a huge crock of poo.

This is where I work,

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQykNe0XzY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQykNe0XzY[/url]

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341079155' post='2450932']
aha, found it:
[img]https://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/599297_414760778565239_1260854771_n.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

from my experience, it isnt accurate. I have had very minor surgeries without long waits(typical week or two for appointment), we had a foreign traveller(girl wwoofing at our farm) who needed emergency appendectomy, which happened immediately, my mother has had a few semi serious heart surgeries, no long waits for those and between her and my dad a few helicopter rides to the hospital when it was urgent. Then there is my dad, who as you know has had multiple MAJOR surgeries and there was no waiting time for those, just a bit of a wait while the doctors try to figure out what is best to do, then bam he was in the OR.

Our doctors also do house calls, and have come into their clinic to help us out at 3am(small town clinic) for all sorts of reasons.

[timwho]

meanwhile: http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare
XD apparently no one knows what canada is like

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Timothy J. Hutama' timestamp='1341083260' post='2450946']
meanwhile: [url="http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-moving-to-canada-because-of-obamacare"]http://www.buzzfeed....se-of-obamacare[/url]
XD apparently no one knows what canada is like
[/quote]

like liberals weren't saying the same thing when Bush was re-elected.

[timwho]

but that actually makes sense, in this case they're saying "let's go to Canada" which is a nation that has a higher tax rate and actual acceptance of universal healthcare, exactly what these new posters don't want. :D

[Ice_nine]

I always say I'm moving to Canada when something lame happens in America . . .





And its always a joke. No way you could get me to live in that godforsaken wasteland.

[Papist]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1341084178' post='2450948']
like liberals weren't saying the same thing when Bush was re-elected.
[/quote]

The problem is, they didn't go.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1341014516' post='2450620']
I love when people speak in absolutes. "It doesn't work," "it causes quality of care to decrease," etc. As if there's some sort of determinism at play here. [b]Could it be that we might be able to create a system whereby everyone--and I do mean everyone--is able to possess a sort of mutually agreed upon set of coverage without bankrupting our entire medical system?[/b] Is it possible that the same country that conservatives and patriotic-types heap such lofty adjectives upon--"beacon of light," "city on a hill," "greatest country ever"-- might be able to learn from the mistakes and failures of other civilized nations who provide some sort of universal coverage to its citizens, and create a system that is both cost-effective for the taxpayer, efficient for the patient and reasonably profitable for the medical-industrial complex?

It's not algebra, folks. There's no predetermined failure on the horizon. We can do this if we choose to. The current system is all sorts of f'd up. The Affordable Care Act, regardless of your opinion of its constitutionality or efficacy, does fix some of the truly broken and immoral parts of it. Instead of investing all this time and energy on hating Obama, perhaps we would be better served trying build on the flawed first step he and his party gave us.
[/quote]

Yes, they could allow capitalism to work by allowing people to buy healthcare coverage across state lines enabling competition between healthcare providers, this would lower the costs and raise the benefits they offer.

ed

[Ed Normile]

A-Scuze me if this was already addressed here, but should the Supreme Courtiers have looked at Obamacare through the prism of Freedom of Religion? It seems logical too me as this mandate refuses the right of christian, jewish, muslim, or any other nameable religious institution or for that matter individual, to say no to paying for abortion and abortion related drugs/services. This is in essence telling all who are pro-life that you must pay for the death of the yet born human lives or you face fines or jail time. That seems to be seriously limiting our rights as Americans to practise and live out or religious values in our everyday lives. This is just one small thing this " Tax " arseaults on the practitioners of all religions who believe in teh sanctity of life, but heck patty, was not that way Hitler got rolling, a few small steps at a time?

ed