Do You Think This Is Possible To Achieve?

[beatitude]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1340845489' post='2449727']
I'm not as decided there. I do think some kind of hugs can lead to an occasion for sin, so I would try and avoid that. But I don't see much of a problem with side hugs or less tight hugs where the people are facing each other. I hug my friends like that, so perhaps it's acceptable to extend it to a significant other as well.[/quote]

I don't think you're being archaic and old-fashioned, but I'm not sure this sort of thinking is rooted in purity. Purity and simplicity go very closely together. If you're going to analyse each type of hug and start wondering about what's too tight and what isn't, I think you've lost sight of what you're trying to achieve.

It is possible to have a bear hug and still be loving and chaste, just as it's possible to never touch anyone and be plagued by demeaning thoughts about them. Making a set of stringent rules (holding the left hand only, and only in daylight!) doesn't lead to purity any more than modesty is achieved by taking a ruler and ensuring that your skirt is never more that 2.74cm above the knee.

In fact, sometimes I wonder if an over-concern about the body does not itself come from an impure attitude towards it. Sometimes we treat our bodies as warily as though they are kegs of dynamite that will spontaneously blow up if someone brushes against us, or does something really risque like flashing a kneecap. If you experience your body as something dangerous and tempting, then you will seek refuge in a laundry list of increasingly specific prohibitions, which won't necessarily achieve the proper respect for the body that you want to have.

[quote]While hugging, kissing or holding hands with someone aren't in themselves sinful, they can lead to negative consequences.[/quote]

So can talking to people (in fact, this probably poses the biggest risk of all!). Or looking at people.

I would respect the convictions of someone who didn't want to kiss a person they weren't married to, but if their conviction seemed to be based on this 'slippery slope' argument, I'd be very wary of their reasoning. When I was nineteen, I had a very short-lived relationship with a guy who had these views. He was so obsessed with sexual purity that it seemed he thought about nothing else. That was not pure to me. Eventually I had a wonderful relationship with a guy who was pure enough to think and talk about things other than whether he should have hugged me, or whether it had been sinful for him to lean on my shoulder. The latter relationship felt far more Catholic

Edited June 28, 2012 by beatitude

[FutureCarmeliteClaire]

I've made the same decision. It's not unachievable. There will be temptations, but not unachievable . Prayers for you and your friend.

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1340884032' post='2449916']
So can talking to people (in fact, this probably poses the biggest risk of all!). Or looking at people.

I would respect the convictions of someone who didn't want to kiss a person they weren't married to, but if their conviction seemed to be based on this 'slippery slope' argument, I'd be very wary of their reasoning. When I was nineteen, I had a very short-lived relationship with a guy who had these views. He was so obsessed with sexual purity that it seemed he thought about nothing else. That was not pure to me. Eventually I had a wonderful relationship with a guy who was pure enough to think and talk about things other than whether he should have hugged me, or whether it had been sinful for him to lean on my shoulder. The latter relationship felt far more Catholic
[/quote]

I have to agree with beatitude. The conviction is not wrong in and of itself, but one must examine their motives and what is behind their conviction. Purity and chastity is more than "don't do this, don't do that" but people often become overly obsessive about it. If a hug is considered unchaste then I have to question their understanding of what chastity is. I'm not saying everyone should abandon such convictions or that everyone with the same conviction has erroneous thinking behind it, but it is still a fairly common line of thinking which is why I urge caution and consideration.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

i don't wan't to have sex before marriage either, but don't have the calling for the priesthood or monastic life

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

With the love of GOD all things truely good are possible. His love is all powerful but he doesn't force it upon us, it is a free gift that we need to be willing to recieve.

[PilgrimageOfGrace]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1340784064' post='2449370']I expressed my view to a close friend recently, and[b] she argued that such an idea couldn't possibly work[/b], that I was living in a kind of fantasy and that I'd have a hard time finding a guy who'd want to hold back on intimacy.Do you think what my friend said is right? Is what I desire impossible to achieve?[/quote] If that's what she expects - that is exactly what she'll get.

It's a trap many fall into, and it often leads to great hurt and insecurity later in life.

I was an evangelical before converting and rest arseured it is indeed possible and those marriages work.

Edited June 28, 2012 by PilgrimageOfGrace

[4588686]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1340820302' post='2449487']
Find your spouse on phatmarse. As long as their name doesn't start with the letter "Hasan", you are good to go.
[/quote]

these are false accusiations spread by my political enemies

[Papist]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1340889783' post='2449943']
these are false accusiations spread by my political enemies
[/quote]

That's everybody.

[Theresita Nerita]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1340884032' post='2449916']
In fact, sometimes I wonder if an over-concern about the body does not itself come from an impure attitude towards it. Sometimes we treat our bodies as warily as though they are kegs of dynamite that will spontaneously blow up if someone brushes against us, or does something really risque like flashing a kneecap. If you experience your body as something dangerous and tempting, then you will seek refuge in a laundry list of increasingly specific prohibitions, which won't necessarily achieve the proper respect for the body that you want to have

...

I would respect the convictions of someone who didn't want to kiss a person they weren't married to, but if their conviction seemed to be based on this 'slippery slope' argument, I'd be very wary of their reasoning. When I was nineteen, I had a very short-lived relationship with a guy who had these views. He was so obsessed with sexual purity that it seemed he thought about nothing else. That was not pure to me. Eventually I had a wonderful relationship with a guy who was pure enough to think and talk about things other than whether he should have hugged me, or whether it had been sinful for him to lean on my shoulder. The latter relationship felt far more Catholic
[/quote]

Props to this.

I've had a few super "chaste" relationships that were anything but. Each time I kept wondering - what's he so nervous about? Why is he so fixated on Calvin Klein bilboards and "evil" song lyrics? And worst of all - did he seriously just say "you could come over and watch this movie with me, but i wouldn't feel comfortable with you sitting on my bed" ?

True chastity strives to unite body and soul. For example, I personally would have an easy time kissing the Bible but probably a hard time kissing the Communist Manifesto. In the same way, true chastity wouldn't let you press your lips to a person that you didn't seriously love and respect. Chastity is never telling a lie with your body. It sees both you and the other person in your full humanity, body and soul inseparable.

False chastity sees soul as good and body as evil. This is a heresy, and one I believe a lot of very well-intentioned men fall into in their first baby-steps toward chastity. But it's easy to spot - a "Fear" of the body, super-scrupulosity only about sexual things, pretending not to be attracted you you physically while setting up all these "rules" (like no sitting on the bed).

I'm not saying not to date these guys, I'm just saying that if you come across one, keep in mind that it's important to move toward a more integrated, truthful, fearless chastity before marriage.

On the other hand if you meet one with the honest kind of chastity, snatch him up! And if he has an older brother, send him my way.

[Cherie]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1340884032' post='2449916']


I don't think you're being archaic and old-fashioned, but I'm not sure this sort of thinking is rooted in purity. Purity and simplicity go very closely together. If you're going to analyse each type of hug and start wondering about what's too tight and what isn't, I think you've lost sight of what you're trying to achieve.

It is possible to have a bear hug and still be loving and chaste, just as it's possible to never touch anyone and be plagued by demeaning thoughts about them. Making a set of stringent rules (holding the left hand only, and only in daylight!) doesn't lead to purity any more than modesty is achieved by taking a ruler and ensuring that your skirt is never more that 2.74cm above the knee.

In fact, sometimes I wonder if an over-concern about the body does not itself come from an impure attitude towards it. Sometimes we treat our bodies as warily as though they are kegs of dynamite that will spontaneously blow up if someone brushes against us, or does something really risque like flashing a kneecap. If you experience your body as something dangerous and tempting, then you will seek refuge in a laundry list of increasingly specific prohibitions, which won't necessarily achieve the proper respect for the body that you want to have.



So can talking to people (in fact, this probably poses the biggest risk of all!). Or looking at people.

I would respect the convictions of someone who didn't want to kiss a person they weren't married to, but if their conviction seemed to be based on this 'slippery slope' argument, I'd be very wary of their reasoning. When I was nineteen, I had a very short-lived relationship with a guy who had these views. He was so obsessed with sexual purity that it seemed he thought about nothing else. That was not pure to me. Eventually I had a wonderful relationship with a guy who was pure enough to think and talk about things other than whether he should have hugged me, or whether it had been sinful for him to lean on my shoulder. The latter relationship felt far more Catholic
[/quote]

Great post!

[PhuturePriest]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1340868660' post='2449886']
Thanks, FP I really appreciate what you've said. Hand-holding isn't as big an issue as kissing for me, but it still can be an issue. I try to offer everything to God in glory or sacrifice. While hugging, kissing or holding hands with someone aren't in themselves sinful, they can lead to negative consequences. I've seen people drawn into relationships that are based merely on that level of romance and suffer as a result. I'm not doubting that these things are very enjoyable to experience and that they bring feelings of ecstasy or joy with them, but in not being intimate, any ulterior motives would be avoided. I wouldn't be engaging in a relationship with someone who was out to use me or was purely interested in physical pursuits. And deep down, I would not like to get married someday and remember myself kissing someone else

If I were to be married, this would be the ideal situation. I'm not usually an idealist, but it's something I hope to try and strive for.
[/quote]

Of course kissing is the bigger deal. I was just using the hand-holding as an example. You know, what you have just said about not kissing anyone and wanting to be able to say you have only ever kissed your husband is exactly the way I feel (Except about a wife, of course. ). I was told I was being unrealistic and my ideas were stupid much like you were, but I'm glad to know someone else agrees with me. I of course do not plan to get married as I am pursuing the Religious life, but I may be called to marriage and this is the sort of thing I would strive for. It is so easy to be drawn into a relationship merely by the physical attractions and the romantic feelings, and I would want a relationship that was based on actual discernment with each other. There is no real reason to kiss or anything until you are married anyway, in my opinion.

Edited June 28, 2012 by FuturePriest387

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1340884032' post='2449916']
I don't think you're being archaic and old-fashioned, but I'm not sure this sort of thinking is rooted in purity. Purity and simplicity go very closely together. If you're going to analyse each type of hug and start wondering about what's too tight and what isn't, I think you've lost sight of what you're trying to achieve.

It is possible to have a bear hug and still be loving and chaste, just as it's possible to never touch anyone and be plagued by demeaning thoughts about them. Making a set of stringent rules (holding the left hand only, and only in daylight!) doesn't lead to purity any more than modesty is achieved by taking a ruler and ensuring that your skirt is never more that 2.74cm above the knee.

In fact, sometimes I wonder if an over-concern about the body does not itself come from an impure attitude towards it. Sometimes we treat our bodies as warily as though they are kegs of dynamite that will spontaneously blow up if someone brushes against us, or does something really risque like flashing a kneecap. If you experience your body as something dangerous and tempting, then you will seek refuge in a laundry list of increasingly specific prohibitions, which won't necessarily achieve the proper respect for the body that you want to have.



So can talking to people (in fact, this probably poses the biggest risk of all!). Or looking at people.

I would respect the convictions of someone who didn't want to kiss a person they weren't married to, but if their conviction seemed to be based on this 'slippery slope' argument, I'd be very wary of their reasoning. When I was nineteen, I had a very short-lived relationship with a guy who had these views. He was so obsessed with sexual purity that it seemed he thought about nothing else. That was not pure to me. Eventually I had a wonderful relationship with a guy who was pure enough to think and talk about things other than whether he should have hugged me, or whether it had been sinful for him to lean on my shoulder. The latter relationship felt far more Catholic
[/quote]

Thank you for such a great response. My ambition is definitely not to analyse things and try and work out what sort of actions will or will not lead me to sin. I realise I could have sent out the wrong message when talking about acceptable hugs (and when I read it again I do understand why that is) but the reason I feel I need to think carefully about such physical contact is that it has the tendency to make me very, very emotional (as I mentioned in an earlier response) even when it should bear very little significance. I am trying to be pure and I am trying to be chaste, but I understand that analysis can get in the way of that.

My heart tells me to commit myself to God whatever my calling. So far, I think I have been able to live modestly and purely. I'd just like to extend those sorts of things to any future relationship, but I'm not entirely sure how. Not kissing seemed like a good way. Marriage is a lifelong connection between two people and a total giving of the persons to each other. I just feel as though I would be giving myself completely to my spouse if I had never kissed him (or any other man) until our wedding.

I want to give myself to God. I don't do nearly the best job of it, but I think purity and chastity are good ways to be closer to Him. I guess I just need to make sure that I'm going about them the right way.

Thanks again, beatitude. You helped me clear things up in my own mind

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='FutureCarmeliteClaire' timestamp='1340884573' post='2449919']
I've made the same decision. It's not unachievable. There will be temptations, but not unachievable . Prayers for you and your friend.
[/quote]

Thank you! It's nice to know that there are others feeling the same way

[quote name='EmilyAnn' timestamp='1340885707' post='2449925']
I have to agree with beatitude. The conviction is not wrong in and of itself, but one must examine their motives and what is behind their conviction. Purity and chastity is more than "don't do this, don't do that" but people often become overly obsessive about it. If a hug is considered unchaste then I have to question their understanding of what chastity is. I'm not saying everyone should abandon such convictions or that everyone with the same conviction has erroneous thinking behind it, but it is still a fairly common line of thinking which is why I urge caution and consideration.
[/quote]

Thanks EmilyAnn, you're right. What I said about hugs before relates mostly to my own experience and limitations. Hugging people still makes me cry sometimes, and other times it makes me feel very unsafe. So I don't do it very much. I know that hugging a guy face-to-face would probably make me even more emotional, and it could lead me to sin because of the emotion I feel. Do you think such limitations are good to have for myself? Most people I know can hug others easily, but I have a bit of trouble doing it. I'm just trying to make things easier, but I'm not sure how to go about that in a way that reflects purity.

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1340886183' post='2449927']
i don't wan't to have sex before marriage either, but don't have the calling for the priesthood or monastic life
[/quote]
[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1340886717' post='2449929']
With the love of GOD all things truely good are possible. His love is all powerful but he doesn't force it upon us, it is a free gift that we need to be willing to recieve.
[/quote]

Thanks Tab

[quote name='PilgrimageOfGrace' timestamp='1340887804' post='2449933']
If that's what she expects - that is exactly what she'll get.

It's a trap many fall into, and it often leads to great hurt and insecurity later in life.

I was an evangelical before converting and rest arseured it is indeed possible and those marriages work.
[/quote]

Thank you for your encouragement. It was a shame to hear her say that, but she is the kind of person who does base things on the physical.

[Spem in alium]

[quote name='Theresita Nerita' timestamp='1340900117' post='2449985']
Props to this.

I've had a few super "chaste" relationships that were anything but. Each time I kept wondering - what's he so nervous about? Why is he so fixated on Calvin Klein bilboards and "evil" song lyrics? And worst of all - did he seriously just say "you could come over and watch this movie with me, but i wouldn't feel comfortable with you sitting on my bed" ?

True chastity strives to unite body and soul. For example, I personally would have an easy time kissing the Bible but probably a hard time kissing the Communist Manifesto. In the same way, true chastity wouldn't let you press your lips to a person that you didn't seriously love and respect. Chastity is never telling a lie with your body. It sees both you and the other person in your full humanity, body and soul inseparable.

False chastity sees soul as good and body as evil. This is a heresy, and one I believe a lot of very well-intentioned men fall into in their first baby-steps toward chastity. But it's easy to spot - a "Fear" of the body, super-scrupulosity only about sexual things, pretending not to be attracted you you physically while setting up all these "rules" (like no sitting on the bed).

I'm not saying not to date these guys, I'm just saying that if you come across one, keep in mind that it's important to move toward a more integrated, truthful, fearless chastity before marriage.

On the other hand if you meet one with the honest kind of chastity, snatch him up! And if he has an older brother, send him my way.
[/quote]

Thanks Theresita You cleared up a lot of the questions I had.

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1340903987' post='2450009']
Of course kissing is the bigger deal. I was just using the hand-holding as an example. You know, what you have just said about not kissing anyone and wanting to be able to say you have only ever kissed your husband is exactly the way I feel (Except about a wife, of course. ). I was told I was being unrealistic and my ideas were stupid much like you were, but I'm glad to know someone else agrees with me. I of course do not plan to get married as I am pursuing the Religious life, but I may be called to marriage and this is the sort of thing I would strive for. It is so easy to be drawn into a relationship merely by the physical attractions and the romantic feelings, and I would want a relationship that was based on actual discernment with each other. There is no real reason to kiss or anything until you are married anyway, in my opinion.
[/quote]

Thanks, FP. It's nice to hear that others feel the same way Yes, discernment is a great thing to work towards and to do with another person. I hope that if I am called to marriage, I will find someone who wants to discern with me.

Edited June 28, 2012 by Spem in alium

[EmilyAnn]

[quote name='Spem in alium' timestamp='1340911637' post='2450061']
Thanks EmilyAnn, you're right. What I said about hugs before relates mostly to my own experience and limitations. Hugging people still makes me cry sometimes, and other times it makes me feel very unsafe. So I don't do it very much. I know that hugging a guy face-to-face would probably make me even more emotional, and it could lead me to sin because of the emotion I feel. Do you think such limitations are good to have for myself? Most people I know can hug others easily, but I have a bit of trouble doing it. I'm just trying to make things easier, but I'm not sure how to go about that in a way that reflects purity.
[/quote]

If you have that much trouble with even hugging - which is in itself a chaste act - then I wonder if there is a deeper problem with intimacy. I may be completely off base here, but is it at all possible that your convictions are based in a fear or uncomfortableness with even chaste physical intimacy such as hugging? Because if that is the case then that is not going to be solved by refusing such chaste actions, but only serve to make it worse and if you do go on to marry it could cause a problem. But like I said I may be completely off base here.