Transubstantiation And Aristotelian Metaphysics

[ICTHUS]

John argues that there cannot be both a 'sign' and the reality signified thereby, because it is the substances themselves in which qualities inhere. So, no bread and wine remain, thus you've only got the thing signified.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='May 20 2004, 03:56 PM']John argues that there cannot be both a 'sign' and the reality signified thereby, because it is the substances themselves in which qualities inhere. So, no bread and wine remain, thus you've only got the thing signified.[/quote]
There is no "sign" after concencration it become Jesus whole and entire, the whole Christ. [b]He is veiled--- hidden![/b] "No sign" Jesus Christ in His Divinity and Humanity, Truly Present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity becomes present in the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Pax
Jason

[Aloysius]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='May 20 2004, 03:56 PM'] John argues that there cannot be both a 'sign' and the reality signified thereby, because it is the substances themselves in which qualities inhere. So, no bread and wine remain, thus you've only got the thing signified. [/quote]
the sign is the appearance of bread and wine.

Jason, i'm pretty sure you havto admit there is a sign with historical Catholic doctrine, the appearance is the sign, though.

time for a random pseudo parable from the ever entertaining Aloysius
Say there was some big poisonous thing that if you touched you would die. A holographic projecter projects a big "DO NOT TOUCH" image overtop of it. There is not really a "DO NOT TOUCH" thing there, it just looks like there is; but the DO NOT TOUCH is still a SIGN that what is beneath it should not be touched, correct?

the Host looks like bread. There is, in reality, no bread there. But the BREAD is still a SIGN that what is there is the Living Bread that came down from heaven.

Pax Amorque Christi

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 20 2004, 04:19 PM'] the sign is the appearance of bread and wine.

Jason, i'm pretty sure you havto admit there is a sign with historical Catholic doctrine, the appearance is the sign, though.

time for a random pseudo parable from the ever entertaining Aloysius
Say there was some big poisonous thing that if you touched you would die. A holographic projecter projects a big "DO NOT TOUCH" image overtop of it. There is not really a "DO NOT TOUCH" thing there, it just looks like there is; but the DO NOT TOUCH is still a SIGN that what is beneath it should not be touched, correct?

the Host looks like bread. There is, in reality, no bread there. But the BREAD is still a SIGN that what is there is the Living Bread that came down from heaven.

Pax Amorque Christi [/quote]
The "sign" you speak yes, but not the other.

[Aloysius]

okay, i getchya.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 20 2004, 04:19 PM'] the sign is the appearance of bread and wine.

Jason, i'm pretty sure you havto admit there is a sign with historical Catholic doctrine, the appearance is the sign, though.

time for a random pseudo parable from the ever entertaining Aloysius
Say there was some big poisonous thing that if you touched you would die. A holographic projecter projects a big "DO NOT TOUCH" image overtop of it. There is not really a "DO NOT TOUCH" thing there, it just looks like there is; but the DO NOT TOUCH is still a SIGN that what is beneath it should not be touched, correct?

the Host looks like bread. There is, in reality, no bread there. But the BREAD is still a SIGN that what is there is the Living Bread that came down from heaven.

Pax Amorque Christi [/quote]
Arguing devil's advocate here:

It's [i]substances[/i] in which qualities inhere. You're trying to have qualities inhere in the accidents. This is like pointing to a cell phone, and saying that it's a "sign" for a cell phone, because the light rays touching my eyes aren't really the cell phone

[Livin_the_MASS]

ICTHUS, go to [url="http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eucharist.htm"]The Real Presence[/url] maybe this will help?

Pax
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

A quote from the link I gave


[quote][b]The teaching of the Church on the Real Presence is defined revealed doctrine according to the Council of Trent. It declares that the whole Christ is truly, really and substantially present in the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist immediately after consecration. It also declares that the whole Christ is present under each form, and under each part of particle of each species of both bread and wine. By the "whole Christ" in the Eucharist, we mean He is present in the fullness of His divine and human nature. [u]He is present under the sacramental veils with the fullness of His divine attributes as well as all His human qualities.[/b][/u][/quote]

Pax
Jason

[Livin_the_MASS]

Another quote from same link:

[quote][b]The [u]sensible sign[/u] in the Eucharist is [u]the appearance[/u] of bread and wine, that is, anything in these elements that fall under the senses such as size, color, shape, taste, weight and texture. After consecration, however, this sign contains the whole Christ, His Body and Blood, His Soul and Divinity. [/b][/quote]

Pax
Jason

[Guest AloysiusGhost]

it's like pointing to a box containing a cell phone, and saying that the box's writing and pictures are a sign for the cell phone contained within.

The Body and Blood look like Bread and Wine. Those looks are the sign of His Body and Blood. The substance of them is Body and Blood, but it doesn't look specically like body and blood. it's not just the light beams, because the Body and Blood actually look like bread and wine, whereas a cell phone looks like a cell phone.

it's completely following the mind of the Church through the centuries to say that the appearance of bread and wine is the symbol of that which it truly is, Body and Blood.

[Livin_the_MASS]

ICTHUS

The quotes I gave from the link are under [b]Basic Catholic Catechist Home Study Course on the Eucharist[/b]. If you go there it will answer your questions!

Pax
Jason

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='AloysiusGhost' date='May 20 2004, 07:47 PM'] it's like pointing to a box containing a cell phone, and saying that the box's writing and pictures are a sign for the cell phone contained within.

The Body and Blood look like Bread and Wine. Those looks are the sign of His Body and Blood. The substance of them is Body and Blood, but it doesn't look specically like body and blood. it's not just the light beams, because the Body and Blood actually look like bread and wine, whereas a cell phone looks like a cell phone.

it's completely following the mind of the Church through the centuries to say that the appearance of bread and wine is the symbol of that which it truly is, Body and Blood. [/quote]
What you are advocating with the 'box' example is more the Lutheran doctrine of 'consubstantiation'. The box is a substance in and of itself, and thus cannot be said to be a true analogy for transubstantiation

[Guest AloysiusGhost]

okay, that wasn't a perfect analogy.

the hologram was a better analogy.

it is the appearance that is the symbol. it's kinda like an optical illusion, but the optical illusion gives a hint as to what it actually is. the Eucharist being under the accidence of bread and wine is considered as a lil more than just an optical illusion, in that the Body and Blood behave in physical attributes (molecular structure, taste, smell, feel, look) as bread and wine. These physical attributes that remain are a lil hint as to what it actually is, a little symbol that points to what it is in reality. the word "symbol" or "sign" does not mean it cannot be that which it signifies.

[BurkeFan]

Getting back to Aristotle a bit... as far as I know, it's important to remember the substance / accident distinction. What goes on during the confection of the Eucharist is a substantial change in the bread and wine. The accidents of the bread and wine (the appearance, color, taste, etc) remain, but the substantial form of the bread and wine is no longer present.
If this is insufficient, lemme know. I can work up something more for you.
In Christ,
Dave

[amarkich]

The matter is not as complicated as that. The Eucharist is wholely the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. The Eucharist is God. There is no symbol in that respect. The symbol of the Sacrament is the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. The Mass is symbolic of the Sacrifice of Christ. This is stated clearly in the Council of Trent pertaining specifically to the Consecration of the Chalice. The Roman Catechism states:
"The additional words for you and for many are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of his Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed his blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but to many of the human race. When, therefore, Our Lord said for you, he meant either those who were present, or those chosen among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added and for many, he wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles. With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of and to the elect only did his Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle (Heb 9:28) when he says: "Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many," and also the words of Our Lord in John: "I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine" (Jn 17:9)."
The only reference I can give you is this (because I have taken this from a website): Catechism of the Council of Trent for Parish Priests, issued by order of Pope Pius V and translated into English with notes by John A. McHugh, O.P., and Charles J. Callan, O.P. (Joseph F. Wagner, Inc.: New York, 16th printing, 1962), p. 227.


I apologize for the lengthiness. I am sure you can find it in the actual source from the Catechism, but I do not know what it is. I have a direct source for this next section which also concerns itself with the Consecration of the Chalice:

Since these very words of consecration are replete with mysteries and most appropriately suitable to the subject, they demand a more minute consideration.

The words: This is the chalice of my blood, are to be understood to mean: This is my blood, which is contained in this chalice. The mention of the chalice made at the consecration of the blood is right and appropriate, inasmuch as the blood is the drink of the faithful, and this would not be sufficiently signified if it were not contained in some drinking vessel.

Next follow the words: Of the new testament. These have been added that we might understand the blood of Christ the Lord to be given not under a figure, as was done in the Old Law, of which we read in the Epistle to the Hebrews that without blood a testament is not dedicated; but to be given to men in truth and in reality, as becomes the New Testament. Hence the Apostle says: Christ therefore is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of his death, they who are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The word eternal refers to the eternal inheritance, the right to which we acquire by the death of Christ the Lord, the eternal testator.

The words mystery of faith, which are subjoined, do not exclude the reality, but signify that what lies hidden and concealed and far removed from the perception of the eye, is to be believed with firm faith. In this passage, however, these words bear a meaning different from that which they have when applied also to Baptism. Here the mystery of faith consists in seeing by faith the blood of Christ veiled under the species of wine; but Baptism is justly called by us the Sacrament of faith, by the Greeks, the mystery of faith, because it embraces the entire profession of the Christian faith.

Another reason why we call the blood of the Lord the mystery of faith is that human reason is particularly beset with difficulty and embarrassment when faith proposes to our belief that Christ the Lord, the true Son of God, at once God and man, suffered death for us, and this death is designated by the Sacrament of His blood.

Here, therefore, rather than at the consecration of His body, is appropriately commemorated the Passion of our Lord, by the words. which shall be shed for the remission of sins. For the blood, separately consecrated, serves to place before the eyes of all, in a more forcible manner, the Passion of our Lord, His death, and the nature of His sufferings.

The additional words for you and for many, are taken, some from Matthew, some from Luke, but were joined together by the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Spirit of God. They serve to declare the fruit and advantage of His Passion. For if we look to its value, we must confess that the Redeemer shed His blood for the salvation of all; but if we look to the fruit which mankind have received from it, we shall easily find that it pertains not unto all, but to many of the human race. When therefore ('our Lord) said: For you, He meant either those who were present, or those chosen from among the Jewish people, such as were, with the exception of Judas, the disciples with whom He was speaking. When He added, And for many, He wished to be understood to mean the remainder of the elect from among the Jews or Gentiles.

With reason, therefore, were the words for all not used, as in this place the fruits of the Passion are alone spoken of, and to the elect only did His Passion bring the fruit of salvation. And this is the purport of the Apostle when he says: Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many; and also of the words of our Lord in John: I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me, because they are thine.

Beneath the words of this consecration lie hid many other mysteries, which by frequent meditation and study of sacred things, pastors will find it easy, with the divine assistance, to discover for themselves.

c.f., Catechism of the Council of Trent, The Sacrament of the Eucharist, Form of the Eucharist

The Catechism talks about the specific Mysteries which are signified (the symbolic aspect) by the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Here my link to the Catechism:
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/trent/tsacr-e.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/mast...ent/tsacr-e.htm[/url]

For the link with all five Catechisms of the Church, go here:
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/master2.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/master2.htm[/url]

"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." --Athanasian Creed. God bless.