Non-catholics Have Feelings Too

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote name='Jason' date='May 27 2004, 02:29 PM'] You are born anew in Baptism for Jesus said Unless you are born again of water and spirit, refering to Baptism. So this does not go with just accepting Jesus, we are born anew at Baptism we become sons in The Son. [/quote]
I ask this mainly in curiousity, and to see your view of the matter. But how do you know Jesus wasn't speaking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of water? I mean maybe there's a verse about it that I'm missing? Other than that, cause John the Baptist himself said in Luke 3:16, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall paptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" So then the reason why Jesus Himself was baptized in water was cause He was there to fullfill prophecy and also law. And no I'm not against water baptism, I myself have been baptized in the Catholic church and also in other churches (I forget what reason why, can't recall). I just am not so sure if I buy the 'Water Baptism + Believe = Saved' deal.


[quote]St. Paul writes we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Faith without works is dead, and it is written in the end all will be judged according to their deeds.

It is alot more complicated than accepting Jesus, it is work, it is a cross, unless one take up his cross and follow me he cannot be my disciple.[/quote]

And I agree with that, that's a point I've already made clear I believe in. It's just a different way your wording it, but you say the very same thing I just said in my other post. We can't sit around and do whatever we want after we accept Jesus, we have to do what He wants, we gotta excersise our Faith and grow in the Spirit. Which is the very same thing your stating.

Edited May 27, 2004 by Archangel Raphael

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote]Easy Cowboy   be nice!
I see something here now it is starting to make sense![/quote]

Dude, even Jesus himself called Herod a fox. And John the Baptist called the pharasees a brood of vipers.

Edited May 27, 2004 by Archangel Raphael

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]I ask this mainly in curiousity, and to see your view of the matter. But how do you know Jesus wasn't speaking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of water? I mean maybe there's a verse about it that I'm missing? Other than that, cause John the Baptist himself said in Luke 3:16, "I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall paptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:" So then the reason why Jesus Himself was baptized in water was cause He was there to fullfill prophecy and also law. And no I'm not against water baptism, I myself have been baptized in the Catholic church and also in other churches (I forget what reason why, can't recall). I just am not so sure if I buy the 'Water Baptism + Believe = Saved' deal.[/quote]

[quote][b]John 3:5-6[/b]
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, [b]no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.[/b] What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit." [/quote]

[quote][b]CCC on Baptism[/b]
1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to "fulfill all righteousness."19 Jesus' gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.20 The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his "beloved Son."21

1225 In his Passover Christ opened to all men the fountain of Baptism. He had already spoken of his Passion, which he was about to suffer in Jerusalem, as a "Baptism" with which he had to be baptized.22 The blood and water that flowed from the pierced side of the crucified Jesus are types of Baptism and the Eucharist, the sacraments of new life.23 From then on, it is possible "to be born of water and the Spirit"24 in order to enter the Kingdom of God.

1235 The sign of the cross, on the threshold of the celebration, marks with the imprint of Christ the one who is going to belong to him and signifies the grace of the redemption Christ won for us by his cross.

1236 The proclamation of the Word of God enlightens the candidates and the assembly with the revealed truth and elicits the response of faith, which is inseparable from Baptism. Indeed Baptism is "the sacrament of faith" in a particular way, since it is the sacramental entry into the life of faith.

1237 Since Baptism signifies liberation from sin and from its instigator the devil, one or more exorcisms are pronounced over the candidate. the celebrant then anoints him with the oil of catechumens, or lays his hands on him, and he explicitly renounces Satan. Thus prepared, he is able to confess the faith of the Church, to which he will be "entrusted" by Baptism.39

1238 The baptismal water is consecrated by a prayer of epiclesis (either at this moment or at the Easter Vigil). the Church asks God that through his Son the power of the Holy Spirit may be sent upon the water, so that those who will be baptized in it may be "born of water and the Spirit."40

1239 The essential rite of the sacrament follows: Baptism properly speaking. It signifies and actually brings about death to sin and entry into the life of the Most Holy Trinity through configuration to the Paschal mystery of Christ. Baptism is performed in the most expressive way by triple immersion in the baptismal water. However, from ancient times it has also been able to be conferred by pouring the water three times over the candidate's head.[/quote]

[Archangel Raphael]

[quote]John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of spirit is spirit." [/quote]

Alright cool thanks Looks like I may have a couple friends I have to get baptized.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Archangel Raphael' date='May 27 2004, 01:20 PM']I take your definition as 'instant salvation' to be that no one is truly Saved until they get to heaven, cause during our time on earth we are all subject to falliblity, yes?  If so, then I agree with that.  It's just a different way of looking at the term 'Saved.' 

I guess the proper term is being 'Born Again.'  When you accept Jesus into your heart, you are a new creation, a new being, a baby in the Spirit.  Therefore through learning the Word, prayer, and attending church, you grow more and more in the Ways of the Lord and begin to develope in the Spirit.  Just as we grow physically and mature, it is the very same thing with the Spirit.

I guess when the protestants say that we have salvation, is cause when someone asks Christ to come into our hearts, it means that if someone were to die five minutes later, they would be with Jesus.  Or if someone was on their death bed, and knew in their heart they screwed up in their life, and was repentant of it, then I believe too if that person accepted Christ that they would gain salvation. 

So perhaps the proper term to use here, is being Born Again.[/quote]
AR,

I just posted this on another thread. The "born again" experience that Protestants believe results from "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" was unheard of during the first 16 centuries of Christianity. It is not biblical. And it was not taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

Every properly baptized Christian (and I don't mean by immersion) has been "born again," i.e. is "baptized of water and the Spirit" (John 3:3-5).

Born again is a mistranslation of the Greek word [i]anothen[/i]. Born [i]"anothen"[/i] means "born from above" or "born anew." Newer translations have corrected this error.

"Instant salvation" is taught by many Protestant churches; it is unbiblical and untrue. One is not "saved" in the sense that he's assured from the moment he "accepts Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior" that he's going to heaven, as many (but not all) Protestant denominations claim.

I read your exchanges with Anna on another thread (how to keep our kids catholic, or how to Protestant-proof our kids). Please answer her question.

JMJ Likos

[mulls]

water = natural birth

spirit = new birth


without being born of water and spirit...or to emphasize...born of water AND spirit

not about baptism here

[theculturewarrior]

Non-Catholics have feelings too? Is that a point of debate? (Cause I'm pretty sure they don't! )

[Paladin D]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 27 2004, 04:55 PM'] water = natural birth

spirit = new birth


without being born of water and spirit...or to emphasize...born of water AND spirit

not about baptism here [/quote]
Then what is the point of Christ even mentioning [b]"water"[/b]? That's like saying...

[i]"If you are not born, you are not alive"[/i]

[mulls]

3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.


--here Jesus talks about being born again, which obviously is not the first birth, right?


"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"


--Nicodemus is like what'chu talkin bout Willis? i already been born!


5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.


--alright, here's the verse in question...Jesus refers to the natural birth (water....like when a woman's water breaks) and the spiritual birth


6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[2] gives birth to spirit.


--as in verse 5, Jesus refers to the natural birth, than to the spiritual birth.


looks as if Jesus had to distinguish between the 2 births for Nicodemus, who was alive in the flesh, like we all are, but needed to be reborn in the Spirit.

[mulls]

here's the footnote from my bible:


[quote]"born of water and the Spirit" or "Physical birth is not enough. You must be born Spiritually." This alternate paraphrase interprets "born of water" as meaning the normal process observed during every human birth. Some think this means water baptism.[/quote]



oh and by the way this is from my Catholic Living Bible, which i found buried in my closet.

our 6th grade teacher made us study the bible for like 2 weeks during Lent i think, so that's why i have it, and i'm glad i still do.

Edited May 27, 2004 by mulls

[Katholikos]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 27 2004, 03:55 PM'] water = natural birth

spirit = new birth


without being born of water and spirit...or to emphasize...born of water AND spirit

not about baptism here [/quote]

[color=red][Edited by dUSt: Personal Attack][/color]

Edited May 27, 2004 by dUSt

[Dusty Fro]

Are non-Catholics not human? If you prick us, will we not say "OW!" and pass out? If you throw holy water on us, will we not disappear in a hissing cloud of steam...oh wait...

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='May 27 2004, 05:30 PM'] Are non-Catholics not human? If you prick us, will we not say "OW!" and pass out? If you throw holy water on us, will we not disappear in a hissing cloud of steam...oh wait... [/quote]
Explain yourself, please.

[Dusty Fro]

A joke, partly borrowed from "Revenge of the Nerds," partly a joke at my own expense. Non-catholics ARE as human and vulnerable as Catholics, and are subject to pain when made to feel alienated.

[Quietfire]

[quote]Are non-Catholics not human? If you prick us, will we not say "OW!" and pass out? If you throw holy water on us, will we not disappear in a hissing cloud of steam...oh wait... [/quote]

Likos,
there was truly no disrespect there. Trust me.
Actually it was just a bit of levity. that is all.

the statement....first -revenge of the nerds (i think)
second- Wizard of Oz.



Dusty,
showing your age there huh, bro.




Peace all.