Non-catholics Have Feelings Too

[Anna]

That's right, Ellenita! :wub:

[Katholikos]

Dusty Fro --

I was once a Protestant (I became an atheist, then a Catholic). So I can appreciate your feelings.

We Catholics believe that our Church was founded by Christ and that its teachings are absolute Truth. There is only One True Church, and we belong to it. The Church wrote the New Testament and formed the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old. Our Church is the [b][i]mother[/i] [/b]of the Bible, not the [b][i]daughter.[/i][/b] The Bible came out of the Church; the Church did not come out of the Bible. The New Testament is based on the living, dynamic teaching Church.

Conversely, Protestant denominations are all Bible-based. Their founders read the Bible and "discovered" doctrine(s) in it that differed in some way from every other denomination. So, he (or she) started a new denomination -- one among thousands. All denominations are based on an [i]interpretation[/i] of the same Scriptures -- Martin Luther's 66-book Bible. (The original Bible had 73 books before Luther cut it.)

So Catholics think their religion is superior, not because we are superior, but because Christ founded our Church and the Apostles were its teachers. The Apostles taught us what to believe through the Church, so we don't have to figure it out all over again.

I don't know the post you referred to that offended you, but I used to be offended just reading Catholic books! Those Catholics thought they were always right!

And then, after a lot of years and a lot of rethinking, I realized that they [u]were [/u]always right! But I didn't like it one bit when they said it.

Our attitude about Truth can seem threatening and oppressive. My posts, particularly, are militantly Catholic. My nickname at phatmass is "Industrial-Strength Catholic." This Church pulled me out of the black pit of atheism, and I'll be eternally grateful.

Please just let any of us know if we're uncharitable -- especially me.

I once was blind, but now I see. I LOVE THIS CHURCH !!!!!

Welcome back, Dusty.

JMJ Likos (Jay)

[Quietfire]

Industrial-Strength Catholic? I like that. Did you get my last email bro?
I resent it with my comments.

Ive noticed that to. From experience. Didnt want to think the Church knew it all, cause then I would be wrong. Not possible. If it came from the Church, then I wouldnt read it.
Then I read one....
and another......
viola!

*scales dropped from her eyes slowly(so as not to shock)
but baby, she's got a long way to go.

[Dusty Fro]

I don't like that you say that your church, (which is really mine too, because I do believe in One Church, Christianity, no matter what flavor, it's got the same spice) is the mother of the Bible. I was under the impression that God inspired the scriptures into the hearts of his believers. Give God, even Mary a parent roll if you want, but the church is still under God.

Please don't try to convert me. I'm here for answers, and it's going to take a lot more than what you've been saying to make me Catholic. I'd appreciate it.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Dusty Fro' date='May 23 2004, 06:09 PM'] I don't like that you say that your church, (which is really mine too, because I do believe in One Church, Christianity, no matter what flavor, it's got the same spice) is the mother of the Bible. I was under the impression that God inspired the scriptures into the hearts of his believers. Give God, even Mary a parent roll if you want, but the church is still under God.

Please don't try to convert me. I'm here for answers, and it's going to take a lot more than what you've been saying to make me Catholic. I'd appreciate it. [/quote]
The only one who converts anyone is God. We just plant the seed, He does the rest

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]I don't like that you say that your church, (which is really mine too, because I do believe in One Church, Christianity, no matter what flavor, it's got the same spice) is the mother of the Bible[/quote]

The Catholic Church IS THE ONLY CHURCH! Why? Because it has the FULLNESS of TRUTH

Pax
Jason

[Katholikos]

You must still be suffering from the effects of that thread you mentioned. Would you want to repost it so we'll understand more about what's troubling you? Nobody here is trying to convert you. That's God's job, not ours. We assume you are here to learn, and we're here to teach you as best we can.

The Bible did not come from a generic Christian church, but from the Catholic Church. There was only one Church in existence at the time, plus a few heresies. The followers of Christ were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). The Bishop of Antioch, who was a student of St. John the Apostle, ordained a bishop by St. Peter, and personal friends with St. Paul, wrote in 107 A.D., "...where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Perhaps the Church had been called Catholic before then, but at least by 107, it was known by the name Catholic (meaning 'universal' in Greek).

Peace be to you and to all,

Oremus pro invicem (Let us pray for one another), Likos

[Quietfire]

One of the hardest things I have had to realize Dusty Fro,
is that the Church came first, the Catholic Church...
[b]they[/b] took [b]thier[/b] writings and from it we have the Holy Bible. I am speaking of the NT here.

First came Tradition
then the New Testament.

That is one of the things that shocked me most...
I dont ever remember learning that before, or maybe I didnt hear it.(or refused to)

Same goes for the Old Testament as well.
Tradition, then someone wrote it down.

What is it that we are debating? Are we debating how the Church interprets the Bible, because logically speaking, if [b]I[/b] wrote it, then who are you or anyone else to tell someone what it means. If I instruct you to what it means and ask that you teach my students, my friends, and then some other person walks up to you one day and states that you are doing it wrong and were instructed in the wrong way...How would you feel?
The apostles (and diciples) wrote the letters and epistles that make up the New Testament. Through teaching and Tradition, instruction and succession, they are still doing what they were doing 2000 years ago.
So where is the debate?
And some are still claiming that they are doing it wrong? How would one know?
This is only my opinion. Which means nothing in the scheme of life.
But I came here kicking and screaming, thinking that I wouldnt be shown anything that couldnt be shown anywhere else.
I was wrong.(and if you knew me, you'd know that that is a big thing)
Proud, arrogant, always had to have the last word and had to be right.
[b]By the saving grace of Christ..........







I have been humbled.[/b]
or should I say..humbled with joy.


Peace

Edited May 24, 2004 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

let me clarify something before someone gets the wrong idea of my point. First, this is only my opinion. that said lets move on.

As far as the NT

First came Christ, and through His word and action, He fulfilled prophecy.
He taught his diciples, apostles.
He taught them things that are not in writing. Otherwise the Holy Bible would be, quite honestly, a never ending book. So He instructed them, His chosen, to guide and teach His flock. That is the important part. Often He instructed His chosen, and we (you and I) cannot argue as to whether everything that was instructed was put in the Bible. We know this because otherwise we wouldnt be here debating.
The truth is, is that what was of the most importance for understanding was put in the NT. Everything else would be taught in a 'classroom'(its the only word I can think of-sorry) sense so that it would be understood.
Isnt it in the Bible that often Jesus would talk to a crowd of gatherers, but would also instruct His chosen ones privately so that they would further understand? He wanted to make sure they knew exactly what it was that he was either saying or going to say or said.


Then they(those who were and are the Catholic Church) decided to put it in a compilation. The NT.

I suppose we could debate as to 'why this book and not that one' as far as choosing what would eventually become the New Testament.
But then you would have to debate that with someone else. Since I cannot answer that question properly.


Peace.

[Dusty Fro]

How do we know if Jesus taught the disciples things that aren't in writing if they....aren't in writing? Are you disregardng the Bible? That kind of scares me, man.

How do you know the traditions of a church if they aren't in writing, or recorded somehow? How do those things get carried down without fault without some sort of specific writing, even if it is from 100 AD or whatever? It seems like you're saying that the history of the Bible has messed up the church. As an amateur historian and writer myself, I know that having things in writing is very important to accuracy in the future.

[Katholikos]

Dusty, I've opened a new thread and posted your questions there, where they can be discussed more amply. These are great questions that need to be explored at length. Thanks for asking them. Please go to the Sacred Apostolic Tradition thread for more comments about the Bible and Tradition. Thanks.

Ave Cor Mariae, Jay (Likos)

[Winchester]

Bigot: One who holds strongly and obstinately to a position that you do not entertain (Devil's Dictionary)


It is the nature of human discourse that some will be offended, some beliefs will be insulted. I dare say that all will fall short, here, and the above definition of bigot is both humourous and humbling; and relevant.

If you believe something, then believe it. Nothing is so much worth dying for as the truth. It's a serious matter and it will hurt feelings. This is not an excuse; I believe it's a worthy aspiration to share the truth so perfectly that one reaches and does not repulse, enlightens and does not offend. It is an aspiration, though, and people ain't gonna make it.

If you're going to step into the ring, you're going to get hit, eventually. The key is to not let yourself get knocked out.

Distilled: Whine not, for thou hast put on thy gloves of thine own volition.

[Anna]

Amen!


And remember: this is the Debate Table. If you're looking for warm fuzzies, you might try Open Mic. :wub:

[Ellenita]

Though Open Mike has it's moments too!

[p0lar_bear]

Dusty Fro,

I just read the thread you were referring to. I'm not surprised at all that you were offended.:angry: When I first arrived, I wasn't sure I wanted to join because of some of the things I saw. Even now, I don't even read the posts of some people or at least don't respond to them.

Most people here try to carry on reasonable, civil discussions. Others, while they may have the right information tend to be....let's say, a little less pastoral than others in how the information is presented. Sometimes people get too involved in an argument or don't think before they type. In addition, sometimes people do not realize how their words will be taken by others.

As a general rule, this is a place for discussion and debate. Ask us questions, challenge us, and if someone is being a jerk, ignore them and focus on those who are being helpful. We won't always agree with you, but I think most will try to present the Catholic position without offending you.