Fortnight For Freedom / Venting

[qfnol31]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1340220235' post='2446782']Back to the main topic, though, in response to qfnol31 - I don't remember any specific bishops opposing Obamacare in the beginning. In fact, I remember some (and maybe even the USCCB) supporting it - in a (now) failed effort to promote government responsibility in the healthcare arena.[/quote]Here are some article circa the time the bills were being passed:
http://old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2010/10-043.shtml
http://old.usccb.org/healthcare/Fact-sheet-conscience-protection-HCR.pdf
Really you can look through this page and find a bunch of articles from that time: http://old.usccb.org/healthcare/

[quote]Let us know how Mass goes!
[/quote]Hopefully well, or my head's on the chopping block!

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1340252861' post='2446990']
Here are some article circa the time the bills were being passed:
[url="http://old.usccb.org/comm/archives/2010/10-043.shtml"]http://old.usccb.org...10/10-043.shtml[/url]
[url="http://old.usccb.org/healthcare/Fact-sheet-conscience-protection-HCR.pdf"]http://old.usccb.org...tection-HCR.pdf[/url]
Really you can look through this page and find a bunch of articles from that time: [url="http://old.usccb.org/healthcare/"]http://old.usccb.org/healthcare/[/url]

Hopefully well, or my head's on the chopping block!
[/quote]

That's a good resource, but only shows one side of the story. Just do a google search on "bishops support obamacare" and you'll find even more resources saying the opposite.

It seems to me that the qualm the bishops had against obamacare was abortion, and after certain wording was removed from the bill, they embraced it. We're just adding that wording back in now in the form of mandates from the white house.

BUT - I'm no politician. In fact, I hate politics [i]for this very reason[/i]. I could definitely be wrong. I didn't follow everything back in its early stages (2009-2010), and I certainly don't follow everything now. I'm just calling it as I remember - and my memory could be faulty. Still there is a lot of evidence suggesting that the bishops [i]did[/i] support obamacare, as long as they removed abortion stuff.

[Annie12]

Fides' Jack, I totally understand what you are saying. I'm not sure if I completely agree though. The fortnight for freedom is about religious liberty because the government is overreaching it's bounds. I think the USCCB is doing the best they can in this very difficult situation. Prayer is totally the right path to go down and I trust that God will hear our cry because he is love and mercy it's self(even if it's not in the way we are planning).

I really agree with you on the fact that we need to renew catholic culture in America. I am a teen and I get dressed up for mass all the time and when I see other teens who don't ( and wear daisy dukes instead of trousers or skirts) I feel like I can't relate to them because they seem so worldly. I really wish people could understand that at mass we are meeting face to face Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. When we go on an outing with friends or go to work a lot of people get way more dressed up for that than they would for Mass. Mass is Not casual. Mass is the meeting of heaven and earth! They way many people dress for mass these days suggests that they either don't understand the amesomeness of mass, or they just don't care about God.

Thanks for bringing this up. More Catholics need to bring this to their attention.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1340334183' post='2447308']
I really agree with you on the fact that we need to renew catholic culture in America. I am a teen and I get dressed up for mass all the time and when I see other teens who don't ( and wear daisy dukes instead of trousers or skirts) I feel like I can't relate to them because they seem so worldly. I really wish people could understand that at mass we are meeting face to face Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. When we go on an outing with friends or go to work a lot of people get way more dressed up for that than they would for Mass. Mass is Not casual. Mass is the meeting of heaven and earth! They way many people dress for mass these days suggests that they either don't understand the amesomeness of mass, or they just don't care about God.

Thanks for bringing this up. More Catholics need to bring this to their attention.
[/quote]
Have you considered reading The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis?

[Papist]

It is going to be interesting when the HHS Mandate is required to comply. I see it that the bishops have 3 options.

#1 Shutdown the hospitals, colleges, etc.
#2 Do not comply and pay the fines.
#3 Do not comply and do not pay the fines.

I see #3 as the best option. If they do #1, then the Church will get accused of hating women, the poor, etc. #2 will bankrupt many of the institutions. #3 will force the government to take action against these institutions, forcing the government to shut them down. That could be a political nightmare for Obamacare

[fides' Jack]

That's the second time someone has brought up the Screwtape Letters in this thread. I read it once (years ago), but I'm not exactly sure why it's relevant here.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me?

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340381116' post='2447453']
It is going to be interesting when the HHS Mandate is required to comply. I see it that the bishops have 3 options.

#1 Shutdown the hospitals, colleges, etc.
#2 Do not comply and pay the fines.
#3 Do not comply and do not pay the fines.

I see #3 as the best option. If they do #1, then the Church will get accused of hating women, the poor, etc. #2 will bankrupt many of the institutions. #3 will force the government to take action against these institutions, forcing the government to shut them down. That could be a political nightmare for Obamacare
[/quote]

I agree - #3 is the only option that could possibly work in favor of the Church. An unjust law should not be followed - and this is a perfect opportunity for the Church to lead the faithful in a matter that will eventually require [i]real[/i] faith.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1340381551' post='2447459']
That's the second time someone has brought up the Screwtape Letters in this thread. I read it once (years ago), but I'm not exactly sure why it's relevant here.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me?
[/quote]

chapters 2 & 16 would be good places to start why the Screwtape Letters have been mentioned.

[qfnol31]

I think a lot of the bishops are gunning for the third option as well. I just hope that if it gets that far the administration doesn't get a sympathetic court.

But, if we can prevent the President from being reelected at all, maybe the next administration would just drop the court cases before a verdict.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1340382555' post='2447464']
chapters 2 & 16 would be good places to start why the Screwtape Letters have been mentioned.
[/quote]

Well, I just read them. I don't see how they apply.

As far as dress is concerned, there were really two different ideas presented here - people should dress nicely for Mass, and they don't. This gives me personal concern because I feel that, as I said, we are "comfort Catholics" and can't be made to sacrifice ourselves (as will be necessary to win this fight that is starting between Obama and the Church). Btw, I didn't exclude myself from this group.

On the other hand, and to a much greater severity, there's the way-too-short skirt. That's not just a lack of due reverence to God, but also presents an occasion of sin to people around them. Wearing clothes such as these could only arise out of ignorance of God and the Mass. These may be really good people - but they don't know what they're doing.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1340398238' post='2447576']
Well, I just read them. I don't see how they apply.

As far as dress is concerned, there were really two different ideas presented here - people should dress nicely for Mass, and they don't. This gives me personal concern because I feel that, as I said, we are "comfort Catholics" and can't be made to sacrifice ourselves (as will be necessary to win this fight that is starting between Obama and the Church). Btw, I didn't exclude myself from this group.

On the other hand, and to a much greater severity, there's the way-too-short skirt. That's not just a lack of due reverence to God, but also presents an occasion of sin to people around them. Wearing clothes such as these could only arise out of ignorance of God and the Mass. These may be really good people - but they don't know what they're doing.
[/quote]
Wow.

[fides' Jack]

Well, this thread was meant to let me vent about something that frustrates me - a lot. Nobody has to agree with me. There are some things I'm quite judgmental about, but I'm not going to apologize for something I believe in.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

This hits close to home. Back in January, I founded [url="http://www.facebook.com/HHS"]Stand with the US Bishops Against the HHS[/url] and I've heard the political grandstanding accusation a few times.

"They just want Obama out of office!"

Yes. They do.

The Church routinely opposes evil regimes and their dictators, why not oppose the president who has tried to dictate to the Church?

It's Obama who made himself an enemy of the Church. If the US Bishops are being political, that's only because they are, in this instance, doing what we all should do. Every Catholic in this country should be "political" right now. We have a duty to be. We need to be shaping the dialogue, taking hold of the narrative, and directing the action of our government.

Is it too little, too late? Maybe. I was against the broad, general USCCB support for Obamacare. Our bishops frequently forget that they are not economists or politicians or lawyers, and that they have no competence in those areas. [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/06/bp-boyea-d-lansing-skeptical-about-need-for-usccb-document-on-u-s-economy/"]Some of them are starting to realize that[/url].

We lay people need bishops to have spines and lead us. Our bishops need us to help them stay informed about these related, non-theological areas. Our bishops also need us to help them spread the Gospels. We need to get into the social media and let the whole world know.

Let's support the bishops in this fight.

[qfnol31]

Well the bishops have the responsibility of educating Catholics on what we must support and cannot support. I think a large problem is when Catholics confuse prudential judgment (typically in economics) with Church teachings.

They cannot tell Catholics which policies are most prudential as a matter of their office, such as many might have tried to do with the health care rule as a whole (though many prominent bishops opposed it quite vocally as well). They can remind us of basic obligations and what policies are expressly against Catholic teachings and the common good. These determinations are binding, but my experience is that American Catholics have a certain amount of pride that keeps them from listening when they should listen and makes them use the bishops for another different agenda.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1340144972' post='2446459']
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how specifically this campaign "treats prayer like magic that'll get you whatever you want." Traditionally, the Church has [b]always[/b] called for public prayers of petition during times of crisis, and it seems to me that Catholics are essentially obligated to petition God for help when facing evil. It seems to me stupid for Catholics to oppose the mandate [b]without[/b] prayer. We say public prayers of petition at every Mass, and the Lord's Prayer, given to us by Christ Himself, is largely a prayer of petition. I really don't see how you can make a case against prayers of petition in this case without being blatantly contrary to two centuries of Catholic Faith. Are you implying that it would have been better that people [b]not[/b] pray to God about this issue? I honestly don't get it.

[/quote]

No. All I was saying was that maybe the problem I have with it isn't actually with the bishop's response, but my own issues. I didn't make that clear enough. Just trying to state an opinion, and not be argumentative, since this isn't the debate forum.

[Adrestia]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1340404883' post='2447616']
Well, this thread was meant to let me vent about something that frustrates me - a lot. Nobody has to agree with me. There are some things I'm quite judgmental about, but I'm not going to apologize for something I believe in.
[/quote]

As one of the very few people I have met in real life, I feel comfortable saying that I don't think you're judgment. My original comment was directed specifically at person I quoted.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Adrestia