fides' Jack Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 So, I think this is a great idea from the USCCB. In fact, I think prayer is the answer. A few thoughts... It seems too little, too late. The U.S. Bishops are, in my opinion, somewhat responsible for the situation we're in now. I have all due respect for them, but Obamacare [i]should[/i] not have been approved in the first place. We are reaping what we sowed. Also, going to Mass yesterday, and watching a video from the bishop during the homily about how we should all come together and pray during the fortnight, and then I notice that the people in front of us aren't paying attention at all. They're looking to the side - at a TV that's been setup in the foyer showing pictures from the last youth group outing. I also see a [i]bunch [/i]of ladies in skirts that might as well be tutus (sp?), and guys don't care to dress up more than in shorts and sandals. The sound guy is wearing a polo shirt (very short step up), but is following the Mass on his iPhone. We are comfort Catholics. We have no backbone, and no willingness to sacrifice ourselves. Without a genuine miracle from on high, we will lose this fight. The fight isn't going to stop over this HHS stuff. This is just the beginning. The final outcome, I think, is going to depend on just how much Catholics are willing to sacrifice and dedicate their lives for their faith. I hope and pray that God inspires us, and soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 To me, this "fortnight for freedom" feels more like political grandstanding than it feels like it's coming from a place of piety. And not to be a jerk, but I don't think it's fair to judge a person's character by what they wear, especially to church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 18, 2012 Author Share Posted June 18, 2012 You may be right about it being political grandstanding. As for the judging comment - I'm not judging their souls - just their character. I'm not sure why you think the comment "especially to church" fits. If anything, that's going to be the most telling place about a person's character. If a family shows up to Mass in a $30K+ vehicle, the father has a belt full of expensive devices on, the mother is wearing all sorts of expensive jewelry (and not much in the clothing department), and the teenage daughter is wearing something that [i]must[/i] be showing off her underwear to anyone under 6 or 7, then I don't see how I could [i]avoid[/i] passing judgement on their character. You can see where their priorities are. At the very least, I could make general statements, even if judgements about a specific person's character are unwarranted. When [i]the majority[/i] of church-goers struggle to show the least bit of reverence at Mass, and we're about to face one of the biggest (if not [i]the[/i] biggest) battle the U.S. Catholic Church has ever faced, we're in trouble. s'all i'm sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340046910' post='2445906'] To me, this "fortnight for freedom" feels more like political grandstanding than it feels like it's coming from a place of piety.[/quote] How exactly is it "political grandstanding," and what would you rather the Bishops' response be? Simply to shut up and "keep their religion out of politics"? Just quietly role over to the Will of Obama? Whatever else you might say about the USCCB (and I have had issues with them on other matters), opposing this HHS contraception mandate is absolutely the right thing to do, both on moral and on religious freedom grounds. While I agree with Jack that it would have been best if the USCCB had never supported socialized medicine in the first place, it is absolutely right to take a public stand against this mandate. (Their left-leaning positions on a number of issues, if nothing else, shows that they are not simply lackeys of the GOP or the political right.) It seems some folks have no problem when religious figures support things like socialized medicine, open borders, or increased spending on social or environmental programs, yet whenever they take a public stand for something politically-incorrect, such as opposing the HHS contraception mandate or "gay marriage," it's denounced as "political grandstanding." Edited June 18, 2012 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basilisa Marie Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 [quote][color=#282828]As for the judging comment - I'm not judging their souls - just their character. I'm not sure why you think the comment "especially to church" fits. If anything, that's going to be the most telling place about a person's character.[/color] [color=#282828]If a family shows up to Mass in a $30K+ vehicle, the father has a belt full of expensive devices on, the mother is wearing all sorts of expensive jewelry (and not much in the clothing department), and the teenage daughter is wearing something that [/color][i]must[/i][color=#282828] be showing off her underwear to anyone under 6 or 7, then I don't see how I could [/color][i]avoid[/i][color=#282828] passing judgement on their character. You can see where their priorities are.[/color][/quote] Souls...character...I don't understand what the big difference is. So...would it be better if they didn't come at all? To me it just sounds like the kind of mindset Screwtape would encourage. I'm all for making sure your own family is dressed appropriately for mass. And telling your teenage daughter that you don't care how Suzie Short Skirt dresses for mass, she has to dress appropriately. I mean, I know you're venting here. Personally I've had a lot of problems with church communities that are super judgmental about stuff like that, among other things. [quote][color=#282828]How exactly is it "political grandstanding," and what would you rather the Bishops' response be? Simply to shut up and "keep their religion out of politics"? Just quietly role over to the Will of Obama?[/color][/quote] Of course they shouldn't just shut up and not oppose it or whatever. Obviously the HHS mandate is terrible. I have trouble figuring out the line between petitioning God and treating prayer like magic that'll get you whatever you want. Maybe I'd rather them not use the kind of language that they're using. "Fortnight for Freedom." It sounds like a catchy propaganda slogan to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340060131' post='2446027'] Souls...character...I don't understand what the big difference is. So...would it be better if they didn't come at all? To me it just sounds like the kind of mindset Screwtape would encourage. [/quote] Well, in the context of passing judgement, passing judgement on someone's soul is thinking that they'll go to hell for something that they've done, or thinking that you know just how much their sin stains themselves. Passing judgement on someone's character is thinking that this person is the [i]type[/i] of person who would do something like that. Or thinking that they don't have due reverence for the Sacrifice of the Mass. I don't see anything wrong with judging someone's character in cases like that. In other cases where the sin is more subtle and not as scandalizing, then maybe judgement should be reserved. But all of this is beside the point. I'm not sure I like the name, either, but at least the bishops have some focus in the right direction this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I didn't have time to go back to my apartment before Mass the other week after doing my 5k exercise walk. I walked into the parish in shorts and a tee shirt. I knelt and prayed before Mass as speaking went on all around me. I fully participated in every way from prayer to song to attentively listening. I gave all the proper new translation responses without looking at the cheat sheet in the pews. I bowed deeply before receiving the Eucharist (and this lead to my pastor telling me that a person had asked him when we brought back bowing after they thought it had been stricken post-Vatican II). As almost everyone else in my row filed out after Holy Communion instead of returning to kneel, I knelt in prayer. I'm not trying to paint myself as the perfect Catholic. God knows that I am not and so does pretty much everyone on here. But I think that if one were to judge me based on my appearance that day, they would believe me to be someone who didn't care that he was kneeling before the King of Kings, that he was loved enough to die for, nor that he could dare believe Christ was truly present in the Eucharist. [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1340053487' post='2445995'] How exactly is it "political grandstanding," and what would you rather the Bishops' response be? Simply to shut up and "keep their religion out of politics"? Just quietly role over to the Will of Obama? Whatever else you might say about the USCCB (and I have had issues with them on other matters), opposing this HHS contraception mandate is absolutely the right thing to do, both on moral and on religious freedom grounds. While I agree with Jack that it would have been best if the USCCB had never supported socialized medicine in the first place, it is absolutely right to take a public stand against this mandate. (Their left-leaning positions on a number of issues, if nothing else, shows that they are not simply lackeys of the GOP or the political right.) It seems some folks have no problem when religious figures support things like socialized medicine, open borders, or increased spending on social or environmental programs, yet whenever they take a public stand for something politically-incorrect, such as opposing the HHS contraception mandate or "gay marriage," it's denounced as "political grandstanding." [/quote] Soc...just sort of agreed with the USCCB. I think I hit my head earlier, it's the only explanation. That said, agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clare~Therese Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 You've got valid points. Perhaps it is too little too late. Maybe it does sort of sound like political grandstanding. Especially since it seems to be such a catchy little phrase. However, when people get pushed into certain situations, or get pushed into a corner, so to speak--well, "desperate situations call for desperate actions" or however that goes. What I'm trying to say is, when we're in a corner like this, you might surprise yourself. We might surprise ourselves with how much of a backbone we have that's been in hiding, so to speak. We could get/have a backbone in this situation ([u]with God's grace and assistance, of course[/u]). I don't know if this is coherent or if it makes sense. Maybe I'm being to much of an optimist for once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1340060131' post='2446027'] Of course they shouldn't just shut up and not oppose it or whatever. Obviously the HHS mandate is terrible. I have trouble figuring out the line between petitioning God and treating prayer like magic that'll get you whatever you want. [/quote] Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how specifically this campaign "treats prayer like magic that'll get you whatever you want." Traditionally, the Church has [b]always[/b] called for public prayers of petition during times of crisis, and it seems to me that Catholics are essentially obligated to petition God for help when facing evil. It seems to me stupid for Catholics to oppose the mandate [b]without[/b] prayer. We say public prayers of petition at every Mass, and the Lord's Prayer, given to us by Christ Himself, is largely a prayer of petition. I really don't see how you can make a case against prayers of petition in this case without being blatantly contrary to two centuries of Catholic Faith. Are you implying that it would have been better that people [b]not[/b] pray to God about this issue? I honestly don't get it. [quote]Maybe I'd rather them not use the kind of language that they're using. "Fortnight for Freedom." It sounds like a catchy propaganda slogan to me.[/quote] I suppose the good bishops should've come up with something less catchy to promote prayer against this injustice . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Clare~Therese' timestamp='1340144695' post='2446454'] You've got valid points. Perhaps it is too little too late. Maybe it does sort of sound like political grandstanding. Especially since it seems to be such a catchy little phrase. However, when people get pushed into certain situations, or get pushed into a corner, so to speak--well, "desperate situations call for desperate actions" or however that goes. What I'm trying to say is, when we're in a corner like this, you might surprise yourself. We might surprise ourselves with how much of a backbone we have that's been in hiding, so to speak. We could get/have a backbone in this situation ([u]with God's grace and assistance, of course[/u]). I don't know if this is coherent or if it makes sense. Maybe I'm being to much of an optimist for once? [/quote] Prayer petitioning God shouldn't be a "desperate measure," but a first course of action for the serious Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1340053487' post='2445995'] How exactly is it "political grandstanding," and what would you rather the Bishops' response be? Simply to shut up and "keep their religion out of politics"? Just quietly role over to the Will of Obama? Whatever else you might say about the USCCB (and I have had issues with them on other matters), opposing this HHS contraception mandate is absolutely the right thing to do, both on moral and on religious freedom grounds. While I agree with Jack that it would have been best if the USCCB had never supported socialized medicine in the first place, it is absolutely right to take a public stand against this mandate. (Their left-leaning positions on a number of issues, if nothing else, shows that they are not simply lackeys of the GOP or the political right.) It seems some folks have no problem when religious figures support things like socialized medicine, open borders, or increased spending on social or environmental programs, yet whenever they take a public stand for something politically-incorrect, such as opposing the HHS contraception mandate or "gay marriage," it's denounced as "political grandstanding." [/quote] Additionally... How many other demographic groups turn out in protest over the littlest slight, real or imaginary? Remember the LA riots after the verdict acquitting the police officers who beat Rodney King? Just one month ago, central Chicago was under virtual lockdown for the NATO summit (forcing many businesses to close and telling people to work remotely from home) because of a couple thousand (at most) out-of-town "Occupy" protesters wanted to protest. We Catholics are Americans with rights as well, and we should exercise them! Imagine if a million Catholics swarrmed downtown Chicago, LA, New York, etc. for a peaceful rally. That should get the government's attention not to mess with the Catholic Church. We just need the will to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Just did the biggest facepalm evar. . . . It's not even worth the energy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 My history may fail me, but I believe that the bishops ended up opposing the law from the very beginning for reasons like this. My bishop has been actively and publicly denouncing this since at least last September. I think that part of the reason behind this whole fortnight for freedom is to inspire Catholics to stand up for something close to our hearts. I'll be at the USCCB's main Mass at the end of it all. I'll let you know then how the homily goes and what the bishops say then about this ordeal. I think this is another shot in a long line of ideas by several prominent bishops, so I can't figure out how it's too late... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1340139408' post='2446427'] I didn't have time to go back to my apartment before Mass the other week after doing my 5k exercise walk. I walked into the parish in shorts and a tee shirt. I knelt and prayed before Mass as speaking went on all around me. I fully participated in every way from prayer to song to attentively listening. I gave all the proper new translation responses without looking at the cheat sheet in the pews. I bowed deeply before receiving the Eucharist (and this lead to my pastor telling me that a person had asked him when we brought back bowing after they thought it had been stricken post-Vatican II). As almost everyone else in my row filed out after Holy Communion instead of returning to kneel, I knelt in prayer. [/quote] I'm not talking about those times. I can completely see that happening. I'm talking about normal Sunday Mass - those Masses that you go to in the morning on Sunday - that the whole day is planned around. Certainly there are also exceptions there, but when [i]most[/i] people are doing it, week after week after week, something is wrong. Back to the main topic, though, in response to qfnol31 - I don't remember any specific bishops opposing Obamacare in the beginning. In fact, I remember some (and maybe even the USCCB) supporting it - in a (now) failed effort to promote government responsibility in the healthcare arena.Let us know how Mass goes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1340160920' post='2446578'] Just did the biggest facepalm evar. . . . It's not even worth the energy [/quote] About what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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