Amppax Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1341015495' post='2450631'] Um... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1341001380' post='2450492'] What do you mean? [/quote] Trust me, I do not agree with KoC often, but sensical or nonsensical, a large swath of secularists use evolution as a premise for an materialistic atheistic philosophy. I don't know if he is knocking natural selection per se, but when you mix all the modern cultural juices you can brew up a pretty erroneous worldview in which "evolution" is used to give said worldview more validity. I think this is mainly what people are (rightly) afraid of. I think it's important to not be reactionary because you find the other side so distasteful. Like, how aforementioned creationists turn anti-science because of the (and I know you hate the term but:) rise of scientism purported by folks who are piss-poor theologians and philosophers. But also on the other side, to not be so hypercritical when people express concern and apprehension revolving around the worldviews that have gotten tangled up in these scientific ideas. You seem to be a little jumpy on this front imo. But what do I know? I agree that giving terms a clear definition would halp. It might also help if you recognize that some of your dearly held scientific words have been hijacked by society at large, and that it's not necessarily the fault of KoC. Soc probably had something to do with it tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1341027567' post='2450678'] Trust me, I do not agree with KoC often, but sensical or nonsensical, a large swath of secularists use evolution as a premise for an materialistic atheistic philosophy. I don't know if he is knocking natural selection per se, but when you mix all the modern cultural juices you can brew up a pretty erroneous worldview in which "evolution" is used to give said worldview more validity. I think this is mainly what people are (rightly) afraid of.[/quote] I'm feeling like a broken record here but I think it is a mistake to conflate the science of evolution and materialist/atheistic philosophy. This is a reason why I think the "Darwinism is the devil" pov is mistaken. It sometimes arseumes, and thus accepts, the category error whereby evolutionary biology is presented as a corroboration of atheism--indeed, a scientific confirmation of atheism. From my theistic evolution pov, I think creationism throws the baby out with the bathwater. (ETA: And the facts you mention are a big part of why clarity of terms and concepts is so important. I can't know if I agree or disagree with someone if I'm not sure what they mean by [i]Darwinism[/i]. In some cases someone might reject Darwinism and be saying that they disagree with the worldview of someone like Dan Dennett; on the other hand a person might be trying to say that they think the field of evolutionary biology is a big pack of lies. Very different discussions. Although in either case the erroneous conflation of evolution as science with naturalism as worldview/ideology may be present. I've expressed this pov several times in this thread by now so I'm surprised by your statements.) [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1341027567' post='2450678']I think it's important to not be reactionary because you find the other side so distasteful. Like, how aforementioned creationists turn anti-science because of the (and I know you hate the term but:) rise of scientism purported by folks who are piss-poor theologians and philosophers. But also on the other side, to not be so hypercritical when people express concern and apprehension revolving around the worldviews that have gotten tangled up in these scientific ideas. You seem to be a little jumpy on this front imo.[/quote] I'm sure I've used some language from time to time that would strike some as provocative or volatile, but I don't find "the other side" (whatever that is, exactly--I'll take you to mean those fellow phatmarseers with whom I've disagreed) to be distasteful. I don't consider myself to be jumpy and I'd rather not discuss your imaginary perception of my emotional states. It's easy to project and imagine content that isn't there on forums and I think it's best to let perceived emotion go most of the time. For the most part I've been sharing my opinions quite disparseionately. I'm thinking I'd rather not discuss these issues with people who find themselves to be of a thin skin. If you're saying that you're sensitive and some of my opinions are offensive we can just call the whole thing off. I like a stimulating and provocative conversation and I'd love to hear what an intellectually honest creationist has to say. What I don't want is to discuss my feelings, and how distasteful this or that choice of words was, or how insensitive and reactionary I am. Boring. [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1341027567' post='2450678']But what do I know? I agree that giving terms a clear definition would halp. It might also help if you recognize that some of your dearly held scientific words have been hijacked by society at large, and that it's not necessarily the fault of KoC. Soc probably had something to do with it tho.[/quote] I don't have dearly held scientific words, whatever you mean by that. And not only do I recognize that certain important terms have variable meanings, but I've made an attempt to sort it out for the sake of constructive discussion. I wouldn't say that the term [i]Darwinism [/i]has been hijacked by society at large; I think it's often used by creationists in a pejorative sense, but my guess about society at large is that the term is ambiguous and superficially understood. And when did I imply that any such thing was KoC's fault? lol. No need to turn a discussion of facts, ideas, and opinions into an interpersonal conflict. I'll quickly lose interest in this thread. I was trying to get clarification to your earlier remark but this reply is even more perplexing. Edited June 30, 2012 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Darwinism explained. [img]http://getfile9.posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/dave6/plgrCORzf86wgxDCcyYA2rKNeNUPQI6OJp70XRwkDLuPeJIzNRxMSsYEinrD/image004.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixpence Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I leave you guys alone for a few days and look what happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 I know. This thread is not evolving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341068945' post='2450856'] I know. This thread is not evolving. [/quote] After evolving to sinful humans it has stalled! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 Just happened to see this blog post on patheos about the Creation Museum/Answers in Genesis guy. Thought it might be relevant to this thread. I'm posting it before actually reading it so I don't know if it's any good. [url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/06/ken-ham-wants-other-christians-to-be-con-artists-like-he-is.html"]Ken Ham is a Con Artist and Wants Other Christians To Be Con Artists Too[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341065257' post='2450828'] Darwinism explained. [img]http://getfile9.posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/dave6/plgrCORzf86wgxDCcyYA2rKNeNUPQI6OJp70XRwkDLuPeJIzNRxMSsYEinrD/image004.jpg[/img] [/quote] That's awful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1341094745' post='2450983'] That's awful! [/quote] He only did it once. Have you ever heard of the Darwin awards? My brother sends them to me every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 (edited) the more I talk, the less I make sense. Hence why my first comment was so short. [quote]I'm thinking I'd rather not discuss these issues with people who find themselves to be of a thin skin. If you're saying that you're sensitive and some of my opinions are offensive we can just call the whole thing off.[/quote] No, I mostly agree with your opinions and do not find them offensive. I hope I've clarified here that I didn't mean to imply you were a big meanie or something. And I don't think I was really debating, I'm more just watching. Maybe I should shut my mouth and stick to that [quote] I was trying to get clarification to your earlier remark but this reply is even more perplexing. [/quote] I tend to have that effect on people. Hopefully I haven't muddied things up more. In that case: I didn't mean to imply anything personal, and I'm genuinely sorry that it seemed that way. It was late, most of the post doesn't really make sense. I've been having (more) trouble this week putting my thoughts into words because of some non-serious, but annoying medical stuff has tuckered me out, so do me a favor and just fahget about it. thx Edited July 1, 2012 by Ice_nine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1341098382' post='2450998'] He only did it once. Have you ever heard of the Darwin awards? My brother sends them to me every year. [/quote] Lawlz. Yeah, the Darwin awards are messed up. So many goofy things on teh interwebs... :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1341099623' post='2451003'] the more I talk, the less I make sense. Hence why my first comment was so short. No, I mostly agree with your opinions and do not find them offensive. I hope I've clarified here that I didn't mean to imply you were a big meanie or something. And I don't think I was really debating, I'm more just watching. Maybe I should shut my mouth and stick to that I tend to have that effect on people. Hopefully I haven't muddied things up more. In that case: I didn't mean to imply anything personal, and I'm genuinely sorry that it seemed that way. It was late, most of the post doesn't really make sense. I've been having (more) trouble this week putting my thoughts into words because of some non-serious, but annoying medical stuff has tuckered me out, so do me a favor and just fahget about it. thx [/quote] No worries. Thanks for the cool reply. I was suffering mild heat stroke when I posted that so it's not my best. hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I got the idea that one side tried to hide the carpenters tools and L_D is trying to show that not only did he use them he also made them! Creation is even more awesome when you see the created science behind it. is coool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleWaySoul Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1339643505' post='2444490'] I wouldn't get my hopes up for a future event to be "Why John 6 isn't literal but Genesis is." [/quote] THANK YOU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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