Good Students = Good Workers?

[Slappo]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1339620798' post='2444378']
@Slappo- do you think that the difference in [b]character quality[/b] (NOT SKILL SET) is something that college students have placed into them in college, or do you think it's something that you wind up with as an end-product after all the "losers" are isolated and "weeded out" by colleges?
[/quote]

I don't think it is that simple to measure where character quality comes from. The college experiences someone goes through could kill character quality they previously had (straight A good moral and ethical character high school student turns into college party animal), or it could provide an atmosphere necessary for an individual to develop character quality. I don't think the [b]curriculum [/b]of a college will develop character quality, but the atmosphere and healthy experiences that college provides an opportunity for can foster the development of character quality which can then be put to use to be succesful in college.

Character quality takes a lot more than 4 years of school or work experience to be properly developed. It should start from day 1 of being born. For those not so fortunate to be raised in a healthy environment, college can be an opportunity to develop that through mentor relationships with respected professors or upperclassmen, college faculty, and friends you make. No technical or vocational school will develop character quality any better than a typical university.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1339619404' post='2444370']
I don't know if you were asking me, but I've hired hundreds of employees in a specialized construction industry, from ditch diggers, to branch operations managers. We all have preferences and our own experiences. Sure college may provide specific knowledge and a rough measure of sucess, but it doesn't indicate work eithic, ability to work with others, being a team player, being pro-company, and the myriad of other qualities required to be a good employee. I've lived through college grads with no real work experience being hired to perform a specific job and failing at it because they think they're smarter and more able than the department manager who's been managing the department for 10 years. Now give the college grad some years of experience and I would have different expectations down the road. It's the old saying, 'Don't tell me what you know and will do, show me what you've done and are doing.'
[/quote]

I agree.

I don't think college can be thrown out as being useless either. My bachelor's is in theology, but it has made me a succesful accountant. I learned a lot of things studying theology that I put into practice with accounting. The theology itself isn't beneficial, but the ability to research, think on my own, and write coherently sure helps!

[Anomaly]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1339620798' post='2444378']
OK, in no particular order here:

@everybody: Obviously college is good for some things. The studies that actually relate to your field are great tools and often completely necessary. Obviously. I'm not arguing against that.

What I'm considering problematic is the idea that somehow the obtaining of a degree- any degree- somehow confers something extra upon you besides the actual skill training you got.

@Slappo- do you think that the difference in [b]character quality[/b] (NOT SKILL SET) is something that college students have placed into them in college, or do you think it's something that you wind up with as an end-product after all the "losers" are isolated and "weeded out" by colleges?

@Lillabett: I know you love hating on people who love to embrace the latest hype in hater-ness, but bear with me. I do not believe that college will continue to be a good investment for young people to be making. Job placement for recent graduates is at an all-time low since the introduction of the GI bill. I will not deny that the status quo absolutely demands you have a college degree, everybody knows that. What I rail against is the idea that something like that can be demanded when it's a comparatively ineffective measure of worker competence, and because it's far far more expensive than it ought to be.

As for learning for its own sake: great. We'll always have higher education for that. But why should everyone be forced to attend institutes of higher learning? (and I do mean forced, being made to have a degree in order to get a job is a brilliant coercion)

Literacy and numeracy are great things. Higher learning is a great thing. But for many people it's not only unnecessary, it's extremely costly as well.
[/quote]I think you're saying that the financial cost of education and the value that employers place on a college education isn't an equitable comparison in value. I agree a traditional college education is too costly in terms of saddling a young person or their families with a huge financial debt. Especially if you are choosing a particular college based that is out of town or out of state and you have to add the living expense. The pay-off isn't there when just the tuition is over-priced. Young people want to start families and are working entry level jobs in a competitive job market, and it's not worth sacrificing $60,000 or more debt for a degree. Reality is, most employers don't care if you have an Accounting Degree from Florida State or Kentucky University, so why would a student or their family make the sacrifice to attend another school if there is a local college or university? But absolutely, a college degree has much intrinsic value, but it's very dependent on what you put into it and how much you apply what you've (hopefully) learned in and out of the classroom.

[BG45]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1339618246' post='2444364']
Am I the only one who wants to make sure that the guy slicing me open didn't simply spend a bunch of time checking out webMD?
[/quote]

Growing up across the street from one of our valedictorians in high school, all I heard from his parents was how he was going to become a doctor. He went to college, partied his butt off with the right people, makes five figures a year...but he's not a doctor because he didn't have the grades to apply to med school, nor did he want to.

My point is that I totally agree with you, I'd rather have someone who had to work hard and learn their stuff operating on me, not C. who was getting drunk 5 times a week.

[Papist]

My desire to be a honest, hard worker is a trait I learned from my parents, not the university. At the university, I was able and required to put it to use frequently...much more than high school.

[Winchester]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXcGF2qv2CY[/media]

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1339620798' post='2444378']
OK, in no particular order here:

@everybody: Obviously college is good for some things. The studies that actually relate to your field are great tools and often completely necessary. Obviously. I'm not arguing against that.

What I'm considering problematic is the idea that somehow the obtaining of a degree- any degree- somehow confers something extra upon you besides the actual skill training you got.

@Slappo- do you think that the difference in [b]character quality[/b] (NOT SKILL SET) is something that college students have placed into them in college, or do you think it's something that you wind up with as an end-product after all the "losers" are isolated and "weeded out" by colleges?

@Lillabett: I know you love hating on people who love to embrace the latest hype in hater-ness, but bear with me. I do not believe that college will continue to be a good investment for young people to be making. Job placement for recent graduates is at an all-time low since the introduction of the GI bill. I will not deny that the status quo absolutely demands you have a college degree, everybody knows that. What I rail against is the idea that something like that can be demanded when it's a comparatively ineffective measure of worker competence, and because it's far far more expensive than it ought to be.

As for learning for its own sake: great. We'll always have higher education for that. But why should everyone be forced to attend institutes of higher learning? (and I do mean forced, being made to have a degree in order to get a job is a brilliant coercion)

Literacy and numeracy are great things. Higher learning is a great thing. But for many people it's not only unnecessary, it's extremely costly as well.
[/quote]

I think I agree with everyone here. For certain, the benefits of college will change depending on the field.

With anything technical, college is an absolute must. And you can say that the rate of hiring college graduates is at an all-time low, but the same goes for non-college graduates (and if that's not all-time low, it's in the general area).

In general, I agree with the sentiment. Someone who does well in college is more likely to be more intelligent and more hard-working. More conformist? I don't know about that.

I have the benefit of landing a good job without having a degree. But I don't think I could have gotten the job without at least saying that I am attending college. So I work a solid 40 hour week and have been keeping 12 credit semesters. Yeah, it takes all my time. In my field, it's necessary. I will end up having taken classes for 6 or 7 years, but in the end it will help me provide an income for my family.

It may be true that in some fields employers don't care as much about a college education. In technical fields, that's never been more inaccurate, simply because the number of people applying is so great, one of the first steps taken is just looking at the education section of the resume. That weeds out a lot of people and still leaves plenty of qualified applicants.

Finally, I will say that timing has a lot to do with it, too. A college education - and doing well in college - speaks a lot more to someone who [i]just[/i] got a degree that to someone who got one 20 years ago. And employers will take that into account, also.