Aquinas Arguments For God Don't Work

[Socrates]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1339845624' post='2445318']
It's not an atheist objection. The most damnin. Criticism I can think of pre-Frege came from Kant who was a theist and quite well grounded in philosophy. But he's probably a Christain of theliberal kitty cat persuasion to you so instead I point you to GEM Anscombe. Cambridge Professor who as an undergraduate blew CS Lewis out of the water and caused him to rewrite the section of 'Miricles' that intended to refute naturalism and a very devout Catholic. She was twice arrested for protesting abortion and wrote about the evils of contraception. She makes the same basic argument that Kant, and so many others, have made against the first cause argument only she does the service of translating the argument into modern predicate calculus and demonstrating mathematically how the argument fails. She was a Tomist so I somehow doubt that her problem was that she just couldn't grasp the subtlety of his thought.
[/quote]
As St. Thomas's "Uncaused Cause" is not a mathematical proof, I failed to see how it could be mathematically disproven. It's metaphysical rather than mathematical. In the book I mentioned earlier, Fr. Spitzer gives a spin on the argument involving "conditioned" and "unconditioned reality," noting that the word "cause" has been interpreted by philosophers in overly-narrow ways. Unfortunately, I don't have time or space to rehash it here, but you can read the book if you're interested.

I'm not a huge fan of Kant, but I'm hardly a philosophy expert. From what I've read, Aquinas is more sane and reasonable. I hardly think bad philosophy is the exclusive property of atheists.

But my point is that typical pop-atheists like the one Eagle's debating generally don't have much philosophical depth at all, and just avoid the deep metaphysical questions of being, by limiting all possible being to material things. Saying that we have a functioning anthropic universe "just because that's the way it is" really doesn't answer anything.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1340145756' post='2446464']
As St. Thomas's "Uncaused Cause" is not a mathematical proof, I failed to see how it could be mathematically disproven. It's metaphysical rather than mathematical. In the book I mentioned earlier, Fr. Spitzer gives a spin on the argument involving "conditioned" and "unconditioned reality," noting that the word "cause" has been interpreted by philosophers in overly-narrow ways. Unfortunately, I don't have time or space to rehash it here, but you can read the book if you're interested.
[/quote]
Sounds like a fun read. Must remember to scoop up a copy. . .

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1340108010' post='2446229']
Oh my God, it's a youtube debate? Run.

Just about the worst forum for an intelligent debate of all time. Props for giving it a go.
[/quote]

Yeah, I am aware it's a terrible forum to debate stuff. Was responding to the Fuzz Bunnycall on Fr. Pontifex's new video on atheism. I have been quite reminded why I hate debating there.