Lisa Ling Explores Religious Life

[emmaberry]

Lumiere: I have to say, there is a certain irony to your post which is ranting on these comments being uncharitable, in light of your own post..

Sister saying 'We have to be open to God's plan for everyone' does not exempt her from the comment, nor does the fact that PMers often use that phrase. When PMers use it, it usually refers to vocations, at least here in VS where I hang out 99% of the time. As a convert to Catholicism, I hate to see it wrongly portrayed, especially on such a notable network. Of course no one is casting stones at her, but it is not evil-as you seem to be trying to say it is-to point out theologicaly incorrect teaching that came across on the show.

Are you an LCWR supporter?

[somethingfishy]

Before this escalates into "Fun with Catholic Tribalism" can we remember that others are watching? Many people read the phorums, guests and lurkers -- and for those of us who are discerning, it's good to remember that there are both other discerners and religious reading. I know a number of vocation directors who keep at least one eye on VS, and to be honest most people who think they're posting semi-anonymously are not that hard to trace.

It's okay for Catholics to hold differing opinions -- we're all different, and God made us that way. And it's good preparation for community living to be able to cope with people you disagree with, and to presume they are operating from the best motives and intentions, and to thank God for the opportunity to consider a situation from a different perspective. I'm not always right, and even if I am right there may be truth in what the other person is saying as well -- so we can come to points of agreement, and genuine loving appreciation for the other and for what they bring.

Lots of interesting perspectives so far

Edited July 2, 2012 by somethingfishy

[emmaberry]

[quote name='somethingfishy' timestamp='1341204378' post='2451387']
It's okay for Catholics to hold differing opinions -- we're all different, and God made us that way. And it's good preparation for community living to be able to cope with people you disagree with, and to presume they are operating from the best motives and intentions, and to thank God for the opportunity to consider a situation from a different perspective. I'm not always right, and even if I am right there may be truth in what the other person is saying as well -- so we can come to points of agreement, and genuine loving appreciation for the other and for what they bring.
[/quote]

Of course-but I think most posters in this thread did not care about the fact that Sister didn't wear the habit, or any other mere 'forms of personal opinion.' The issues were with wrongly portrayed Church teaching, whether it was intended to be portrayed as such by the interviewees or not. The fact that so many PM posters think of this as simple 'differing of opinions' is concerning-the proper statement would be 'different stances of the Church's moral teachings.' Your analogy about living in a community with different 'opinions' doesn't really hold because I am not going to enter a community that would have opinions of the moral teachings of the Magisterium-a community faithful to Rome would not have [i]personal opinions[/i] on this, they would just accept it, because that is what faithful Catholics do.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1341186662' post='2451295']

Lumiere, I don't see at all how this or a few of the other comments you criticised is uncharitable (one quote is from the video itself).[/quote]

[b][i]It was the comment after the quote from the video that I was criticizing.[/i][/b]

[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1341186662' post='2451295']
The [b]first[/b] and [b]foremost[/b] job of a religious is to bring souls to Christ, it is not a be a social worker. Of course we are all sinners (please point out where I said otherwise). If I am sinning, I would hope to be told that so that I can spend eternity in heaven. That is true charity! I have the episode recorded and have seen it several times. Maybe it is just me, but it seemed as if they are being told that they are okay as they are (which wouldn't be rare...many nuns call for gay marriage/rights etc.) That is just my perspective as the video does not show us more detail. Sr. Margaret is doing wonderful work and nobody has denied that!
[/quote]

[b][i]Denise attends mass every Sunday and she appears to be living a chaste life. Denise does not scorn the suggestion of Lisa Ling that she could be a nun (whether the suggestion is against Church Doctrine or not), so she must be comfortable with the idea of making time for daily prayer, etc. How has Sr. Margaret failed to bring her soul to Christ?[/i][/b]

[b][i]More importantly how would you know what is in Denise's soul or what plan God has for her life? How do you know what God has planned for any of those kids? From that little snippet of a TV show, how would you know what Sr. Margaret actually says to these kids? Do you think Sr. Margaret would have been able to bring Denise as far as she has if the first words out of her mouth were, "You are a sinner"?![/i][/b]

[b][i]"[/i][/b]And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.
[sup] [/sup]And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,
[sup] [/sup]And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.
Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.
And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.
And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?
Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
[sup] [/sup]Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
[sup] [/sup]And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
[sup] [/sup]And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
[sup] [/sup]And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

[Lumiere]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1341191420' post='2451315']

Sister saying 'We have to be open to God's plan for everyone' does not exempt her from the comment, nor does the fact that PMers often use that phrase. When PMers use it, it usually refers to vocations, at least here in VS where I hang out 99% of the time. As a convert to Catholicism, I hate to see it wrongly portrayed, especially on such a notable network. Of course no one is casting stones at her, but it is not evil-as you seem to be trying to say it is-to point out theologicaly incorrect teaching that came across on the show.[/quote]

[b][i]As I have learned here on this forum, there are many kinds of vocations: to contemplative religious life, to active religious life, to marriage, to the single life, and more. I have read here that God has a plan for everyone, but not necessarily for a religious vocation for everyone. Sr. Margaret just said, "Who knows, we have to be open to what God's plan is for everyone"[/i].[i] What is getting everyone's knickers in a knot is that Sr. Margaret didn't just jump on the idea and squash it.[/i][/b]

[b][i]Throughout history there have been married women, widows, prostitutes, and others who have either started religious institutions or joined shortly after they were started. At the time I'm sure there were people who felt such things were scandalous. At one time priests could marry. That is considered scandalous now. No one knows what God's plan is for Denise, what else could Sr. Margaret answer except, "Who knows, we have to be open to what God's plan is for everyone"?[/i][/b]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1341191420' post='2451315']
Are you an LCWR supporter?
[/quote]

[i][b]You would like me to say "yes" so you could dismiss me as a "crazy liberal". Well, you'll just have to deal with what I am actually saying because I don't particularly support LCWR.[/b][/i]

[Lumiere]

[b][i]It is interesting to compare the loving responses from [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/122158-vocation-less/"]this thread[/url] with what is being said here. I specifically like this response:[/i][/b]

[quote name='Lisa' timestamp='1341148804' post='2451115']
No, it's not possible to not have a vocation. You are called to something. Remember, a vocation could be described as the best way for you to love God throughout your whole life. He wants you to love Him, so He made something (a person, a consecrated state, a community) for you to do so. It is, however, possible to not have a [i]religious[/i] vocation.[/quote]

[i][b]If Denise came to you, would you immediately denounce her as a sinner or would you respond in a way that would allow her to start on the path of finding "the best way for you to love God throughout your whole life"? Couldn't Sr. Margaret be the person put there to start her on that path?[/b][/i]

[savvy]

Lumiere,

I see where you are going with this. At the end of the day, this is not about sexuality or even acceptance. It's about love. People do crazy things for love, like marry Jesus and become a nun. So, I would say that a lot of people are looking for love. They are just looking for it in the wrong places. I would tell Denise, she was looking for it in the wrong places.

This is one of the reasons why the church needs happy nuns and priests, who live out their vocation with joy. The world is desperate for a witness.

[franciscanlady]

Lumiere, I'm sorry I think you are confused about the posts I made. I said absolutely nothing about Denise, or attempted to judge any person's soul (please go back and read my posts). I find it offensive that you think that is what I was trying to do. I was simply disagreeing with a statement made by Sr. Margaret. In general, (not in response to any one particular person) going to Mass does not equate following the teachings of the Church or even finding fault with one own's sinful lifestyle. For example, there are groups in the Church such as Dignity and New Ways Ministries (not in union with the faith) that go to Mass and that teach homosexual behavior is not a sin and is to be accepted. I disagree with some of the things Sr. Margaret said because it can be misconstrued as saying these behaviors aren't sinful. In all cases, Christ needs to be the center of ministry. I have seen sisters forsake prayer and daily Mass for their ministries. Nuns are to be set apart from social workers as I said before. I am not saying this is the case of Sr. Margaret as I do not know her life. I'm just putting it out there. Just wanted to clarify my position. Peace

Edited July 2, 2012 by franciscanlady

[Lumiere]

[quote name='franciscanlady' timestamp='1341263891' post='2451603']
Lumiere, I'm sorry I think you are confused about the posts I made. I said absolutely nothing about Denise, or attempted to judge any person's soul (please go back and read my posts). I find it offensive that you think that is what I was trying to do. I was simply disagreeing with a statement made by Sr. Margaret. In general, (not in response to any one particular person) going to Mass does not equate following the teachings of the Church or even finding fault with one own's sinful lifestyle. For example, there are groups in the Church such as Dignity and New Ways Ministries (not in union with the faith) that go to Mass and that teach homosexual behavior is not a sin and is to be accepted. I disagree with some of the things Sr. Margaret said because it can be misconstrued as saying these behaviors aren't sinful. In all cases, Christ needs to be the center of ministry. I have seen sisters forsake prayer and daily Mass for their ministries. Nuns are to be set apart from social workers as I said before. I am not saying this is the case of Sr. Margaret as I do not know her life. I'm just putting it out there. Just wanted to clarify my position. Peace
[/quote]

Once again, Sr. Margaret didn't make the statement, but leaving that aside I have a question. This is going to sound snarky, but I would honestly like to know. Do you go up to couples who only have one or two kids and point out to them they are sinning by using birth control? I'll tell you the families of 10 or more children are rare these days and I don't think it is the result of people's self control. Do you also go up to couples who are living together without benefit of marriage and point out to them they are sinning? In both cases, do you refuse to have anything to do with these people until they stop sinning?

[franciscanlady]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1341283354' post='2451759']
Once again, Sr. Margaret didn't make the statement, but leaving that aside I have a question. This is going to sound snarky, but I would honestly like to know. Do you go up to couples who only have one or two kids and point out to them they are sinning by using birth control? I'll tell you the families of 10 or more children are rare these days and I don't think it is the result of people's self control. Do you also go up to couples who are living together without benefit of marriage and point out to them they are sinning? In both cases, do you refuse to have anything to do with these people until they stop sinning?
[/quote]

Wow first of all yes Sr. Margaret did say that (like I said, I have it recorded and made sure to watch that piece so I could quote verbatim). Second your questions are way off base and rude (sorry to say). We have a duty to preach what the church teaches. It is not to be nice and accepting of everybody's sin. I however do not go up to random whom I have never met and make assumptions. Why would you think one would assume that someone who has one or two children is contracepting (as opposed to having difficulties conceiving)? The reason why 10 children families are rare as you say, is because nobody has pointed out to them the sin of contracepting! I have taught adult faith formation and yes I taught EXACTLY what the Church teaches. There were couples living together without being married and yes we still taught the TRUTH. No we didn't throw them out of the program and shun them, but we did make it clear that cohabitation is a SIN! Guess what...they still went through the whole program and went on to be married through the Church. Relativism is what is destroying the Church (you're okay, I'm okay...). I have friends who have lived together without marriage, and I told them the exact same thing. True love of neighbor is admonishing their sins and instructing the ignorant (both Spiritual Acts of Mercy). You have completely misunderstood what was said earlier (as I never once said anything to the likes of not having "anything to do with these people until they stop sinning). I [b]am not[/b] going to respond anymore because you seem to just want an argument and I am too mature for that. Forgive me if I have sounded rude, I am just upset at your lack of charity which is what you have accused some of us on here of doing. God bless

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1341283354' post='2451759']
Once again, Sr. Margaret didn't make the statement, but leaving that aside I have a question. This is going to sound snarky, but I would honestly like to know. Do you go up to couples who only have one or two kids and point out to them they are sinning by using birth control? I'll tell you the families of 10 or more children are rare these days and I don't think it is the result of people's self control. Do you also go up to couples who are living together without benefit of marriage and point out to them they are sinning? In both cases, do you refuse to have anything to do with these people until they stop sinning?
[/quote]

Your comment didn't come off snarky at all.

Hopefully you'll accept an answer from me, though I wasn't the recipient of your Q.

Your correct in your examples about 1-3 child families and couples living in sin. Most of us Catholics don't seek them out to tell them they are sinners, and the ones who do usually aren't doing it in the spirit of love or Christ. I am glad most don't do this, because my family grew up Protestant, and I only have 2 siblings. It would be horrifying if people didn't know the whole story of our conversion and criticized my parents for our small family-you make a good point with that example! However, if I had a ministry of reaching out to couples living in sin, and a reporter said, "Are you every going to get married?" And they said, "No, we aren't doing anything wrong!" I would not say, "God has a plan for everyone and we need to be open, etc." Unlike Sister I would have said something akin to, "the Church has a special place for you in the mystical body of Christ" in a way that clearly communicated to the reporter and audience that that special place was NOT as a Catholic sister. Nothing unloving or unkind about that response, and it still communicates the Catholic moral teaching on transgendered persons. Obviously, Sister was under pressure with a tv camera and Lisa Ling right in front of her face-who knows what I really would've said under pressure. Regardless, a better response could (and should've) been made so as not to confuse the audience, and Sister's transgendered friend.

Edit: I did not see FL's comment, but she says it better than I. God bless!

Edited July 3, 2012 by emmaberry

[Lumiere]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1341290346' post='2451823']
Your comment didn't come off snarky at all.

Hopefully you'll accept an answer from me, though I wasn't the recipient of your Q.

Your correct in your examples about 1-3 child families and couples living in sin. Most of us Catholics don't seek them out to tell them they are sinners, and the ones who do usually aren't doing it in the spirit of love or Christ. I am glad most don't do this, because my family grew up Protestant, and I only have 2 siblings. It would be horrifying if people didn't know the whole story of our conversion and criticized my parents for our small family-you make a good point with that example! However, if I had a ministry of reaching out to couples living in sin, and a reporter said, "Are you every going to get married?" And they said, "No, we aren't doing anything wrong!" I would not say, "God has a plan for everyone and we need to be open, etc." Unlike Sister I would have said something akin to, "the Church has a special place for you in the mystical body of Christ" in a way that clearly communicated to the reporter and audience that that special place was NOT as a Catholic sister. Nothing unloving or unkind about that response, and it still communicates the Catholic moral teaching on transgendered persons. Obviously, Sister was under pressure with a tv camera and Lisa Ling right in front of her face-who knows what I really would've said under pressure. Regardless, a better response could (and should've) been made so as not to confuse the audience, and Sister's transgendered friend.

Edit: I did not see FL's comment, but she says it better than I. God bless!
[/quote]

Actually, I think you said it better. Of course people with small families or couples who are living together aren't repeatedly condemned, so why should these kids be repeatedly condemned?

I usually don't respond to these kinds of threads, but as an observer it seemed to me that when homosexuality or transsexuality is part of the discussion then the people responding with outrage and condemnation rise to a higher level. It seems that these young people and those that work with them are subjected to a whole new level of judgement. I think if franciscanlady will check, she will see that the position of the Church is that there is no sin in being a homosexual. The sin is in engaging in sex outside of marriage and so is on the same level as heterosexuals who engage in sex outside of marriage. I wondered if she condemned heterosexual people who lived together outside of marriage as much as she expected Sr. Margaret to condemn homosexuality and those kids. I felt there was a double standard.

These kids have lost everything to the extent that they are selling the only thing they have left, their bodies. Would constantly telling them they are sinners help them to take those first steps back? Would it be the loving thing to do?

At the same time, as I said above, in this TV show we only see a little snippet of Sr. Margaret's ministry. We don't know what she says to them in private. We certainly cannot gain enough information about her or her ministry to support the judgements I thought I was seeing in the thread.

I do appreciate your calm and thoughtful response.

[savvy]

Emmaberry,

I totally understand what you are trying to say. It takes a while to build a relationship with a person. You cannot say random things even if they might be true, to people you do not know. We are all not Jesus Christ. So in this case, Lumiere is right. We do not know how long Sister has known this people etc.

Edited July 3, 2012 by savvy

[Chiara Francesco]

Here is an online link to watch this program: [url="http://videobull.com/our-america-with-lisa-ling-season-3-episode-2-brides-of-christ/"]http://videobull.com...ides-of-christ/[/url] -

What I found best is to scroll down a bit to use one of the links listed BELOW the box with the pic of Lisa and the "PLAY NOW" and "DOWNLOAD" buttons.

I use the "PUTLOCKER" link and just click on "PLAY NOW" for this link and then click on "CLOSE NOW AND WATCH AS FREE USER" and then click out of a big or small pop-up that comes up and THEN click on "START VIDEO NOW" button and then click out of the 2nd pop-up window and you can then watch the video.

This site has a long list of TV shows ([url="http://videobull.com/tv-shows-list/"]http://videobull.com/tv-shows-list/[/url]) for people either without TVs or no satellite and just the antenna like me! Some aren't TOO bad.

Also, this site MAYBE viewable for people out of the USA but that I don't know as I am IN the USA!


**I use the Putlocker site as it works best for me and unlike some others listed, I DON'T have to download special software OR a special video player in order to watch these shows as some ask you to do.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Chiara Francesco

[Strictlyinkblot]

Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!