Church In Minnisota Bravely Fights For Liberty

[kujo]

The question is whether or not forcing institutions owned and operated by, though not entirely filled with, members of the Catholic Church and other denominations to pay into an insurance pool that includes coverage for contraception, sterilization and abortofacients is considered a violation of religious liberty.

I happen to think that the answer to that question is yes, and that the issue should, and eventually [i]will[/i] be, submitted for judicial review by the Supreme Court; however, I definitely understand the "other side's" argument in regards to the difference in belief between the people who own these hospitals and schools, and the people who actually work there. Still, in the end, I think the whole matter will be expunged.

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339180018' post='2442591']
Of course, both have to do with the bishops' attempts to make society more Catholic--or really, to prevent society from becoming less Catholic. If I were the bishops, I would use all the political maneuvers I could to prevent a decrease in the Catholicity of society, with no concern for the values of "liberal democracy," except when I could use appeals to those values to further my arguments.
[/quote]

I think this is the mantra for a theocracy, right?

[Amory]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1339180416' post='2442595']
I think this is the mantra for a theocracy, right?
[/quote]

Not unless you consider early modern France, Spain, and Portugal to have been theocracies (and I don't know any historians who do).

[kujo]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339180720' post='2442599']
Not unless you consider early modern France, Spain, and Portugal to have been theocracies (and I don't know any historians who do).
[/quote]

How do you define "modern?" Like, which years?

[Amory]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1339180810' post='2442601']
How do you define "modern?" Like, which years?
[/quote]

I said, "early modern."

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period"]http://en.wikipedia....y_modern_period[/url]

Edited June 8, 2012 by Amory

[r2Dtoo]

The Late Middle Ages? What? LOL!

Edited June 8, 2012 by r2Dtoo

[kujo]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339180896' post='2442603']
I said, "early modern."

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_modern_period"]http://en.wikipedia....y_modern_period[/url]
[/quote]

Ah. Didn't see that. Lots my glasses the other day.

So your contention is that we should devolve our social and political systems to those of roughly 1453 AD.

Is that correct?

[Amory]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1339180913' post='2442604']
The Late Middle Ages? What? LOL!
[/quote]

Nope. By anyone's reckoning, the middle ages ended during the 16th century (if not earlier), when the early modern period was just beginning. The Reformation and the Age of Exploration were early modern, not late medieval, phenomena.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Amory

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1339181020' post='2442606']So your contention is that we should devolve our social and political systems to those of roughly 1453 AD.[/quote]
Apparently so. Christians should also return to killing each other if they go to a different church. That was big in the Reformation days.

Edited June 8, 2012 by r2Dtoo

[kujo]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339181137' post='2442607']
Nope. By anyone's reckoning, the middle ages ended during the 16th century (if not earlier), when the early modern period was just beginning. The Reformation and the Age of Exploration were early modern, not late medieval, phenomena.
[/quote]

So, then you'd really like it to be a sort of 1689 type deal?

[Amory]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1339181020' post='2442606']
Ah. Didn't see that. Lots my glasses the other day.

So your contention is that we should devolve our social and political systems to those of roughly 1453 AD.

Is that correct?
[/quote]

There are a couple of things wrong with this.

1) The early modern period stretched for several centuries, only beginning around the late 1400s. To say that I want to "devolve our social and political systems to those of roughly 1453 AD" is to ignore the next two or three centuries of social and political development that occurred during that period.

2) Looking to the past for political models is not a bad thing, as you assume by using the word "devolve," which, of course, has a negative connotation. The framers of our own Constitution looked to the Roman Republic (and some even to the Athenian Democracy) in helping to create our own system of government.

Look, my main point above was that what you consider to be theocracy is not necessary a theocracy. There is an important distinction between a theocracy and a confessional state, one that you (and others) would do well to make. Calvin's Geneva was a theocracy, but contemporary France, Spain, and Portugal were simply confessional states.

[r2Dtoo]

Can't we all just get along with 2012?

[r2Dtoo]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339182056' post='2442613']Look, my main point above was that what you consider to be theocracy is not necessary a theocracy. There is an important distinction between a theocracy and a confessional state, one that you (and others) would do well to make. Calvin's Geneva was a theocracy, but contemporary France, Spain, and Portugal were simply confessional states.
[/quote]
"Forgive me, Mr President for I have sinned."

[Amory]

[quote name='r2Dtoo' timestamp='1339182069' post='2442615']
Can't we all just get along with 2012?
[/quote]

The Maltese seem to be getting along pretty well in 2012, and they're what Kujo would (incorrectly) term a "theocracy"!

[kujo]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1339182285' post='2442619']
The Maltese seem to be getting along pretty well in 2012, and they're what Kujo would (incorrectly) term a "theocracy"!
[/quote]

Yeah, let's be more like the Maltese, totally irrespective of the fact that the U.S. has a whole hell of a lot more going on.

[Amory]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1339182642' post='2442623']
Yeah, let's be more like the Maltese, totally irrespective of the fact that the U.S. has a whole hell of a lot more going on.
[/quote]

I was simply pointing out that there are real, "modern" countries in 2012 where the Church has an important role in public life (in the case of Malta, an official constitutional role). Nobody is calling for the repeal of the Establishment Clause, I'm simply noting that greater religious influence in society is not some retrograde fantasy for those unable to get acclimated to the present.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Amory