J C Penny Father's Day Ad

[Papist]

[quote name='MissyP89' timestamp='1339041942' post='2442067']
1) Typically, I would call you out for dropping a tract on me, but I know your intentions were honest and for that I'll forgive you.

2) I'm already familiar with all of the material in the tract. It makes sense to me. What I'm asking about here is the specific reaction of Catholics to things like the ad in this thread. Would it be more appropriate to never show a homosexual couple anywhere? Are we actively attempting to stop that?

In the case of the abortion debate here in America, our ultimate goal is to put an end to all abortions.

Is there a similar "goal" with homosexuality? [i]That [/i]is what I'm wondering.
[/quote]

It is as what KOC stated. The attempt to give normalcy to such relationships, especially when portrayed as equal to one man and one woman. If you read the tract, then we as Catholics cannot support, and must fight against this grave error.

I think their overall end game is to make Christianity, more specifically the Catholic Church irrelevant in our country.

[Brother Adam]

Lifestyle vs Vocation.

You may notice that is is popular for "liberals" to normalize the idea of people making "lifestyle choices" that typically have to do with one's sexuality or affects how one expresses their sexuality. Straight, gay, transgendered, bi, Rocky Horror Picture Show, and so on. To me a lifestyle choice is whether or not to have a tv in your home. Rather, we are called to live out a vocation which builds up the Church. That is of course why the Church can never accept homosexuality of public expressions of homosexuality or approve "gay unions". It is a violation of one's calling and vocation in life as well as a sin against chastity. The Church is not trying to be mean or rain on anyone's parade (did you catch that?), but out of benevolent concern for all people cannot accept what she knows will ultimately harm them. The Church knows that if you abuse alcohol you are going to harm yourself, even if you think you are just fine and enjoy drinking - even if you think you were born to drink and being attracted to it isn't your fault. Alcohol will still destroy an alcoholic. Or maybe they will die at the age of 112. Their alcoholism still does not fulfill who the person is meant to be before God. Homosexuality is similar (but not always the same, though sexual addiction can be part of it). Just because you are born with it or you think it makes you happy and complete, it is ultimately not who you are meant to be before God. You are still called to chastity and not to misuse your sexuality. No different than that the church knows pre-marital sex, masturbation, and pornography will harm my dignity and my soul.

[b]2348[/b] All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has "put on Christ,"[sup]135[/sup] the model for all chastity. All Christ's faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
[b][url=""]2349[/b] "People should cultivate [chastity] in the way that is suited to their state of life. Some profess virginity or consecrated celibacy which enables them to give themselves to God alone with an undivided heart in a remarkable manner. Others live in the way prescribed for all by the moral law, whether they are married or single."[sup]136[/sup] Married people are called to live conjugal chastity; others practice chastity in continence:
There are three forms of the virtue of chastity: the first is that of spouses, the second that of widows, and the third that of virgins. We do not praise any one of them to the exclusion of the others. . . . This is what makes for the richness of the discipline of the Church.[sup]137[/sup]
[/url][b][url=""]2350[/b] Those who are [i]engaged to marry[/i] are called to live chastity in continence. They should see in this time of testing a discovery of mutual respect, an apprenticeship in fidelity, and the hope of receiving one another from God. They should reserve for marriage the expressions of affection that belong to married love. They will help each other grow in chastity.


[b][url=""]2357[/url][/b] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[sup]141[/sup] tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[sup]142[/sup] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
[/url][b]2358[/b] The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
<a name="2359">[b][url=""]2359[/url][/b] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

[Anomaly]

From an arguably Humanist perspective, the ideal and most natural expression of human families is a man and woman creating a life-long bond to give birth and nurture their children. Things don't always work out in the ideal. However, it's difficult to determine at which point does tolerance and accomodation of the 'less than ideal' become advocation and equating as equal.

If the concern is directed towards what's best for children and society in general, homosexual relationships by nature don't have the natural inclanations of a life long bond for the purpose of being a family. But a SS 'marriage' is roughly equivalant in it's effect on lowering the standard for an ideal family as hetero marriages that are easily and quickly abandoned for divorce when parents seek personal fulfillment as more important to commitment to their children or family.

Fundamentally, SS Marriage, easy divorces, civil unions, and even abortion, are all symptoms of redefining "family" from a committment to a group that may be more important than personal satisfaction to priortitizing personal satisfaction being more important than what's best for the others in a 'family'.

Though I did it facetiously earlier, it is important to point out that the ad does promote caring for children is laudible in society, whether it's hetero or homo parents/caregiver. Retail advertisers don't have an agenda to redifine society, but they do reflect and reinforce societal mores in their appeal to be liked and wanted by consumers. In a way, it's a more Catholic portrayal of SSA where these men are caring for kids and participating in society beyond just validation of a personal sexual choice regardless of society. Come on, at least it wasn't an ad where the kids were bringing the 'dads' breakfast in bed.

[jmjtina]

I bet JCPenny's was paid alot of $$$$$ to run that ad.

It's all about making society desensitized.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='jmjtina' timestamp='1339081300' post='2442165']
I bet JCPenny's was paid alot of $$$$$ to run that ad.

It's all about making society desensitized.
[/quote]Not likely any outside party paid for the ad. Who would pay for it that would be able to pay enough to make it worth the loss of business if it was going to make the majority of people dislike or avoid JCP? JCP ran the ad believing that it may be a little controversial, but the majority of people would NOT be offended by the ad and would view JCP as modern, hip, and current, just like the products that are sold there.

[jmjtina]

GLAAD does this stuff all the time.

[Papist]

At least the children were not doing drugs.

Should not the culture/society always promote and portray the ideal, rather than promoting and portraying the less than ideal[and some much less] as normal and natural.

[Ice_nine]

always promote? yes

always portray? no. Sometimes realism is rad.

[PhuturePriest]

There once was a store called JC Penny's that had a gay ad... That's all I have so far. Still working on it.

I think this is more about being seen as "hip" and thus getting more customers than anything else.

[Papist]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1339086713' post='2442190']
always promote? yes

always portray? no. Sometimes [b]realism is rad[/b].
[/quote]

I don't know what that means.

[Ice_nine]

saying sometimes media/art/whatever should depict "how things are" rather than "how things ought to be." You can never reach the ideal if you ignore the present problems. Not saying that you were implying this, but yeah.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1339074665' post='2442138']
Lifestyle vs Vocation.

You may notice that is is popular for "liberals" to normalize the idea of people making "lifestyle choices" that typically have to do with one's sexuality or affects how one expresses their sexuality. Straight, gay, transgendered, bi, Rocky Horror Picture Show, and so on. To me a lifestyle choice is whether or not to have a tv in your home. Rather, we are called to live out a vocation which builds up the Church. That is of course why the Church can never accept homosexuality of public expressions of homosexuality or approve "gay unions". It is a violation of one's calling and vocation in life as well as a sin against chastity. The Church is not trying to be mean or rain on anyone's parade (did you catch that?), but out of benevolent concern for all people cannot accept what she knows will ultimately harm them. The Church knows that if you abuse alcohol you are going to harm yourself, even if you think you are just fine and enjoy drinking - even if you think you were born to drink and being attracted to it isn't your fault. Alcohol will still destroy an alcoholic. Or maybe they will die at the age of 112. Their alcoholism still does not fulfill who the person is meant to be before God. Homosexuality is similar (but not always the same, though sexual addiction can be part of it). Just because you are born with it or you think it makes you happy and complete, it is ultimately not who you are meant to be before God. You are still called to chastity and not to misuse your sexuality. No different than that the church knows pre-marital sex, masturbation, and pornography will harm my dignity and my soul.

[b]2348[/b] All the baptized are called to chastity. The Christian has "put on Christ,"[sup]135[/sup] the model for all chastity. All Christ's faithful are called to lead a chaste life in keeping with their particular states of life. At the moment of his Baptism, the Christian is pledged to lead his affective life in chastity.
............
[/quote]
[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1339077430' post='2442151']
From an arguably Humanist perspective, the ideal and most natural expression of human families is a man and woman creating a life-long bond to give birth and nurture their children. Things don't always work out in the ideal. However, it's difficult to determine at which point does tolerance and accomodation of the 'less than ideal' become advocation and equating as equal.

If the concern is directed towards what's best for children and society in general, homosexual relationships by nature don't have the natural inclanations of a life long bond for the purpose of being a family. But a SS 'marriage' is roughly equivalant in it's effect on lowering the standard for an ideal family as hetero marriages that are easily and quickly abandoned for divorce when parents seek personal fulfillment as more important to commitment to their children or family.

Fundamentally, SS Marriage, easy divorces, civil unions, and even abortion, are all symptoms of redefining "family" from a committment to a group that may be more important than personal satisfaction to priortitizing personal satisfaction being more important than what's best for the others in a 'family'.

Though I did it facetiously earlier, it is important to point out that the ad does promote caring for children is laudible in society, whether it's hetero or homo parents/caregiver. Retail advertisers don't have an agenda to redifine society, but they do reflect and reinforce societal mores in their appeal to be liked and wanted by consumers. In a way, it's a more Catholic portrayal of SSA where these men are caring for kids and participating in society beyond just validation of a personal sexual choice regardless of society. Come on, at least it wasn't an ad where the kids were bringing the 'dads' breakfast in bed.
[/quote]

I agree with both of these posts, honestly. When I read Missy's post I took it as "are we supposed to shove them back in the closet and pretend homosexuality doesn't exist?" I don't think that that's how we're called to minister (I really kind of hate using that word) to those with SSA. My beliefs are fully in line with the Church's teaching on the matter (I think we should show them Christ's love and encourage chastity). But, if I have to see it (and we all know we're going to), I'd rather see, as Anomaly put it, "these men are caring for kids and participating in society beyond just validation of a personal sexual choice" vs. SS PDA or intimacy on TV.

[Socrates]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1338947061' post='2441580']
The meddling of businesses into the morals of society is dangerous in that businesses will decide what morals we follow......in essence, they will dictate our belief system.
[/quote]
[quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1338959538' post='2441658']
Government is not Big Brother - business is.
[/quote]
Obviously, we need those benign and moral folks in government, who care only for the common good and what is best for us, to do more to regulate and crack down on those awful businesses!

Don't get me wrong, I'm (not surprisingly) as opposed to this ad and its implications as anyone else on here.

However, while I can't speak for Eagle_eye, neither J.C. Penney, nor any other company, dictates what morals I follow or my belief system. Quite frankly, anyone whose morality and belief system is dictated to him by a clothing retailer is an idiot and has only himself to blame.

The big difference between private companies and government, is that nobody forces you to buy the products of or do business with any one company, and you can always switch to another if you regard a particular company as unacceptable. You can organize boycotts to pressure companies if you feel strongly enough about it, or even start your own company. (Nobody said any of that would necessarily be easy, but in a free market economy, the option is always a possibility.) If you're offended at J.C. Penney's ads, you can shop elsewhere.

With government, on the other hand, you're forced to obey its dictates or face fines or prison, and must pay for its actions through taxes, whether you choose to or not. (Regarding "gay" issues, those Catholics who think government-imposed homosexual "marriage" will have no negative impact on their freedoms should read [url="http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/301641/canadian-crackdown-michael-coren"]this sobering article[/url] about what's actually going on north of the border where "gay marriage" is the law of the land.)

Business people and corporations are primarily motivated by the bottom line, rather than by pushing any particular social issue. IN the case of J.C. Penney, their profit is made by selling clothes and other goods. Businesses exist to turn a profit, and keep their shareholders and other stakeholders happy. Sadly, in today's pc culture, driven by the aggressive push of the "gay" political lobby, promotion of "gay rights" has come to be regarded as yet another "corporate social responsibility" issue (such as environmental responsibility/sustainability, fighting breast cancer, or helping minorities or poor communities), which companies feel promote to stay in the good graces of interest groups and the public.

J.C. Penney has apparently calculated that the benefits of running a "gay-friendly" ad (keeping on the good side of the gay lobby, and perhaps attracting more gay and "progressive"-minded customers) outweigh the negatives of driving away Christian customers.
If we still had a strongly Christian culture and society, J.C. Penney would have never even considered running such an ad, even if all its executives and board of directors were all flaming homosexuals. It would simply hurt the bottom line too much.

I don't think our society and culture in general would be in such a dismal state, if strongly believing Christians/Catholics would be more strongly pro-active in advancing and promoting [i]our[/i] values, rather than remaining largely silent and timid, while the other side actively pushes and promotes its contrary agenda - and only making defensive noises of outrage over whatever the latest travesty happens to be.

I'm not exonerating J.C. Penny and other companies engaged in supporting immoral agendas, nor excusing the ad, but simply pointing out the foolishness of the fashionable knee-jerk mentality of blaming "business" for all our problems, as contrasted with supposedly benign government.

("Let's Occupy Whatever, throw a fit, and then wait for Government to swoop in and save us all from Corporate Evil!")

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1339007467' post='2441837']
Businesses are more of a reflection if social mores than a innovator. Penney is just reflecting what's accepted more than initiating a change.
[/quote]
Exactly.

[Socrates]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1339029705' post='2441996']
[left]I thought they were about refusing to succumb to external pressures from believers of [b]an antiquated socio-religious dogma that forces individuals to cower and hide from who and what they are[/b][/left]
[/quote]
So that's what you think of the Catholic Faith?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1339084301' post='2442184']
At least the children were not doing drugs.

Should not the culture/society always promote and portray the ideal, rather than promoting and portraying the less than ideal[and some much less] as normal and natural.
[/quote]

Being able-bodied is the ideal. Should ads never portray the less-than-ideal (ie wheelchairs, crutches, etc.)?