Vocation Rant

[LaPetiteSoeur]

Sr. Marie has given very good advice. You can always watch the Mass online (I know it is not the same as you cannot receive the Eucharist, but you can be there in spirit) and then ask for a spiritual communion with Christ.

You are very young (only 15), and your parents are still your parents and guardians. They are acting out of love and as hard as it is to see that now, hopefully you will one day. Perhaps they thought you were moving too fast and they want you to live your life now--as a high school student-- and not waiting for that day when you can enter the convent.

My cousins once lived in the middle east for six years. There was a single priest for the entire country and they were not able to attend Mass very often because there was rarely one available. They continued to be Catholic and practiced, just in a modified way.

Prayers for you and your parents.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1338991760' post='2441735']
I don't mind stubborn . I'm stubborn too.

It isn't sneaking out if your parents know so I guess in your first post I misunderstood when you used that phrase that the parents would know she was with her friends parents. I still say that lying to your parents is wrong. There are people all over the world who are deprived of going to Mass because of violence, lack of priests, and just geographical barriers. It would be much more beneficial to the soul to unite the suffering of being obedient to the suffering experienced by those people to the sacrifice of the Mass through prayer, penance, and spiritual communion. We are guaranteed that Jesus comes to us in the Eucharist but He is also present in prayer and scripture.



Marriage is a very different topic because you are entering into a contractual union that cannot be undone... she also didn't lie. She courageously refused and took the consequences. There are a lot of differences I could continue to expound on.



Our souls are precious that is why I am cautioning against committing a sin, the sin of lying and of disobedience. The ends (going to mass) do not justify the means (lying). You are right I'm treating her as any other child, because she is a child and children need to listen to their parents. Having a vocation does not mean you don't have to follow the same rules as everyone else. As a sister, I treat all children as if they were my own children and this is the advice I would give to any child.

Who gets to decide when it is okay for a child to disobey their parents? What is the criteria? This does not have to be harmful to this child's soul - it could be the thing that brings her to greater holiness but holiness is not a fruit of deceit. She is not sinning by obeying her parents - let her turn this into an opportunity to grow in love with the Lord and see her holiness grow with it. Feeling disconnected from him, missing the Eucharist, are not necessarily signs that one is falling away in faith - they are signs that they are growing.

Monja - I do not mean it disrespectfully when I call you a child. It is wonderful to be so passionate and so filled with life. I am a convert and a sister and when I was your age my faith caused a great deal of discord in my family. I made the mistake as a child of allowing my new found faith and my fervor in my vocation to create a large and impassible divide between myself and my family. I have been in a very similar situation and my choices, to the contrary of my advice here, caused my parents to resent both me and the Church. Had I been more diplomatic, more obedient, holier... I'm sure that we would not, all these years later, be distant and uncomfortable with one another and they might have grown closer to the Church themselves.

Again, it is not you against your parents. It is you and your parents growing towards Christ and right now you are disagreeing on how to do that.

Prayers for you!
[/quote]
If she said she was going out with her friends and went to mass that wouldn't be lying.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that even though it's not a sin in her case not to go to mass, she should see if there are other possible ways of getting there. I didn't want to endorse lying or disobedience you have good points but I can feel her pain because when I was 13 my family has a VERY painful indecent with our parish at the time and we stopped going to mass. I wanted to go but no one would take me. I fell away for 3 years and regret it from the bottom of my heart. I wish I would have been able to go to Mass and develop my spiritual life, but it was so hard and I started to not care and then my spiritual life just completely fell apart. Mass and the Eucharist are essential! I just don't want that to happen to her!

[Gemma]

I have consulted with others, and Monja "can sue" because she has a right to attend church.

Blessings,
Gemma

[somethingfishy]

If anyone here genuinely thinks "not taking your child to Mass" counts as abuse, feel free to report the situation to state authories and see how they respond. Once they're finished laughing in your face, maybe take a chill pill and remember that practicing obedience to legitimate, God-given authority is excellent preparation for religious life.

[AnneLine]

Yes, legally Monja may have a right to sue... but it doesn't make it the better option. I think it is too strong a medicine... and might just injure the patient!

Monja, let's let obedience to the Church and to your parents be your guide. Pick up a phone, call your pastor and ask your PASTOR what he thinks you should do.

I really do think it would be the wiser course for now to just be obedient to your parents and pray quietly at home, joining yourself to the Holy Sacrifice from a distance. While I think they are misguided, I understand why your parents might be concerned, and I think you need to show them in an adult way that they have nothing to be afraid of. If you try to call CPS, that will look even more outrageous to them, and they will get more and more restrictive.

Calling your pastor might also help with the desire for the Eucharist you have. Your pastor He might be able to figure out a way for you to receive from time-to-time even if you can't get to Mass - having you connect with an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion - Lord knows this is an 'extraordinary' situation!

But above all, ask our Lord what he wants. My bet is that he wants you to learn how to love him through this desert time of desire...

Edited June 6, 2012 by AnneLine

[maximillion]

FACT SHEET: A summary of the rights under the Convention
on the Rights of the Child
Article 1 (Definition of the child): The Convention defines a 'child' as a person below the age of 18,
unless the laws of a particular country set the legal age for adulthood younger. The Committee on the
Rights of the Child, the monitoring body for the Convention, has encouraged States to review the age of
majority if it is set below 18 and to increase the level of protection for all children under 18.
Article 2 (Non-discrimination): The Convention applies to all children, whatever their race, religion or
abilities; whatever they think or say, whatever type of family they come from. It doesn’t matter where
children live, what language they speak, what their parents do, whether they are boys or girls, what their
culture is, whether they have a disability or whether they are rich or poor. No child should be treated
unfairly on any basis.
Article 3 (Best interests of the child): The best interests of children must be the primary concern in
making decisions that may affect them. All adults should do what is best for children. When adults make
decisions, they should think about how their decisions will affect children. This particularly applies to
budget, policy and law makers.
Article 4 (Protection of rights): Governments have a responsibility to take all available measures to
make sure children’s rights are respected, protected and fulfilled. When countries ratify the Convention,
they agree to review their laws relating to children. This involves assessing their social services, legal,
health and educational systems, as well as levels of funding for these services. Governments are then
obliged to take all necessary steps to ensure that the minimum standards set by the Convention in these
areas are being met. They must help families protect children’s rights and create an environment where
they can grow and reach their potential. In some instances, this may involve changing existing laws or
creating new ones. Such legislative changes are not imposed, but come about through the same process
by which any law is created or reformed within a country. Article 41 of the Convention points out the when
a country already has higher legal standards than those seen in the Convention, the higher standards
always prevail.
Article 5 (Parental guidance): Governments should respect the rights and responsibilities of families to
direct and guide their children so that, as they grow, they learn to use their rights properly. Helping
children to understand their rights does not mean pushing them to make choices with consequences that
they are too young to handle. Article 5 encourages parents to deal with rights issues "in a manner
consistent with the evolving capacities of the child". The Convention does not take responsibility for
children away from their parents and give more authority to governments. It does place on governments
the responsibility to protect and assist families in fulfilling their essential role as nurturers of children.
Article 6 (Survival and development): Children have the right to live. Governments should ensure that
children survive and develop healthily.
Article 7 (Registration, name, nationality, care): All children have the right to a legally registered name,
officially recognised by the government. Children have the right to a nationality (to belong to a country).
Children also have the right to know and, as far as possible, to be cared for by their parents.
Article 8 (Preservation of identity): Children have the right to an identity – an official record of who they
are. Governments should respect children’s right to a name, a nationality and family ties.
Article 9 (Separation from parents): Children have the right to live with their parent(s), unless it is bad
for them. Children whose parents do not live together have the right to stay in contact with both parents,
unless this might hurt the child.
Article 10 (Family reunification): Families whose members live in different countries should be allowed
to move between those countries so that parents and children can stay in contact, or get back together as
a family.

Article 11 (Kidnapping): Governments should take steps to stop children being taken out of their own
country illegally. This article is particularly concerned with parental abductions. The Convention’s Optional
Protocol on the sale of children, child prostitution and child pornography has a provision that concerns
abduction for financial gain.
Article 12 (Respect for the views of the child): When adults are making decisions that affect children,
children have the right to say what they think should happen and have their opinions taken into account.
This does not mean that children can now tell their parents what to do. This Convention encourages
adults to listen to the opinions of children and involve them in decision-making -- not give children
authority over adults. Article 12 does not interfere with parents' right and responsibility to express their
views on matters affecting their children. Moreover, the Convention recognizes that the level of a child’s
participation in decisions must be appropriate to the child's level of maturity. Children's ability to form and
express their opinions develops with age and most adults will naturally give the views of teenagers
greater weight than those of a preschooler, whether in family, legal or administrative decisions.
Article 12 (Respect for the views of the child): When adults are making decisions that affect children,
children have the right to say what they think should happen and have their opinions taken into account.
Article 13 (Freedom of expression): Children have the right to get and share information, as long as the
information is not damaging to them or others. In exercising the right to freedom of expression, children
have the responsibility to also respect the rights, freedoms and reputations of others. The freedom of
expression includes the right to share information in any way they choose, including by talking, drawing or
writing.
[b]Article 14 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion):[/b] Children have the right to think and believe
what they want and to practise their religion, as long as they are not stopping other people from enjoying
their rights. Parents should help guide their children in these matters. The Convention respects the rights
and duties of parents in providing religious and moral guidance to their children. Religious groups around
the world have expressed support for the Convention, which indicates that it in no way prevents parents
from bringing their children up within a religious tradition. At the same time, the Convention recognizes
that as children mature and are able to form their own views, some may question certain religious
practices or cultural traditions. The Convention supports children's right to examine their beliefs, but it
also states that their right to express their beliefs implies respect for the rights and freedoms of others.

This is not the whole document but I draw attention to article 14.......

[i<3franciscans]

I have not had the time to read through everything, but I am praying for you!

[maximillion]

[quote][color=#282828]Parents should help guide their children in these matters.[/color][/quote]

Help guide them, not dictate what they do. For someone who is fifteen I think the parents are breaking the convention in actively preventing from carrying out her own wishes in relation to her chosen spiritual path.

HOWEVER......I also agree that an all out battle or a legal battle is NOT a good idea.
Get that priest involved asap.

[somethingfishy]

[quote name='maximillion' timestamp='1339004154' post='2441812']
[b]Article 14 (Freedom of thought, conscience and religion):[/b] Children have the right to think and believe
what they want and to practise their religion, as long as they are not stopping other people from enjoying
their rights. Parents should help guide their children in these matters. The Convention respects the rights
and duties of parents in providing religious and moral guidance to their children. Religious groups around
the world have expressed support for the Convention, which indicates that it in no way prevents parents
from bringing their children up within a religious tradition. At the same time, the Convention recognizes
that as children mature and are able to form their own views, some may question certain religious
practices or cultural traditions. The Convention supports children's right to examine their beliefs, but it
also states that their right to express their beliefs implies respect for the rights and freedoms of others.

This is not the whole document but I draw attention to article 14.......
[/quote]

The U.S. has not ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, therefore it is not in any way legally binding within the U.S.

[AnneLine]

Exactly... that UN convention isn't binding here. There are some freedom of religion issues, as several of you pointed out, but it will be VERY hard to get those going in this case with Monja being 15 and living in her parents home.

On an even more on a practical level -- Monja, you don't want to get your parents even more upset than they already are. They could cut off your internet access, or decide to home school you. Right now you have support from us, and you have your relationship with God. They can't touch that. Don't push going to Mass much further, or you may regret it. Just ask your Pastor what you should do and obey.Ask your pastor, and just trust that God will only allow what is best for your growth closer to God.

I really think the best course is just take this one day at a time and demonstrate that YOU are not a threat and that being a Catholic is not a threat. When they see this -- and it will probably take a little while -- they may calm down. Either way, you are following God's will for you right now.

(Edited for typos)

Edited June 6, 2012 by AnneLine

[srmariam]

[quote name='MonjaFutura' timestamp='1338928362' post='2441368']
I remember the relationship I once had with the Lord, He was my Everything. [/quote]

I must say, this concerns me. Your relaionship with God is not something your parents have any power over, its between you and Him, and He will not have altered His part of it.

Mass is important, I am not denying that, but it is not the only part of the relationship, nor should its absence result in the collapse of your faith. I think you need to use this time away from Mass as a time to focus on prayer - the listening sort of prayer rather than the thinking and begging sort - and Bible study.

It is easy to find passages of Scripture to support whet we want, just as it is easy to mistake our own desires for the voice of God in prayer. You are too young to have studied John of the Cross, but he is extremely cautious about such things.

If and when you enter religious life, you will need to live by obedience to your immediate superior - initially the novice mistress and later the prioress/abbess depending on where you go. Obedience is extremely difficult, especially when what is asked of you goes against your personal beliefs, but its essential you see your superior as Christ's representative and what they ask of you as His will, however hard that is. At present, and until you reach majority, your superior is your parents, and you need to be obedient to them. Maybe this is Christ's way of asking you to love Him more deeply with a love based on more than the feelings you get at Mass.

You are in my prayers.

[AnneLine]

Thank you Sister... you verbalized what I was trying to figure out how to say.

I hope no one minds, but I have posted a question in the 'Ask a Scholar' area, asking Fr. Cappie and/or the other Scholars to give us their thoughts on this topic. I for one would value their input.

They have the training and expertise in a matter like this, and they don't often venture into VS so may not have seen this thread. This can't be the first time a question like this has come up - they are our 'scholars' for a reason!

Praying for you, Monja, and asking others to do so as well..... for wisdom, for graces, for God to work on you and your parents in all of this....

[Annie12]

OH! DEAR!... I have been proven wrong again! Darn!

So Monja, I actually take back my last few post. I agree with srmariam. She made some Excellent points and shows that wisdom comes with age ( I'm still a teen so I'm not calling srmariam old or anything just so you know).

Good luck and I am praying for you!

p.s. I think you need to get a priest involved though. He would be able to talk with your parents about what the Church teaches and who knows, maybe your parents may become as fervent as you someday!

[AveMariaPurissima]

Prayers for you, monja. I can only imagine how hard this situation must be for you.

[sixpence]

Monja, I'm sorry to hear what you are going through. I know when I was 15 I was in the middle of questioning everything. It was a mess! Anyway, your situation is fairly confusing since we have somewhat contradictory examples from the saints. If I were you, I would offer up my tears to God if I could not concentrate enough to pray verbally. Also, you obviously have internet access. Could you not try to email your local parish priest to find his take on things. If you do email him and hear back from him, make sure to do what he says! In terms of going to Mass against your parents' will, I definitely don't think you should do it without their knowledge, or by lying to them. Committing a sin in order to get to Mass would be counterproductive. In the meantime, I would echo what everyone else has said. Attempt to stay calm and trust in God, read the Bible, watch Mass on TV, treat your parents with respect, when you are in distress from missing the Eucharist offer the pain up to God and know that He is still with you! I will pray for you too! Good luck and keep us posted!