Nuns And The Vatican

[thessalonian]

The best thing to do with these nuns is excommunicate the order and open a new one for those who want to remain faithful to the Church.

[url="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/01/american-nuns-come-out-swinging-against-vatican-in-face-of-radical-feminist-accusations/comment-page-4/#comment-1360869"]http://religion.blog...comment-1360869[/url]

[Odin]

Hmmm while I definitely agree with the notion and think some action needs to be taken, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that instead we should try to reform these people and pray for them to return....not until all resources have been exhausted should excommunication be implemented. It is a tough call though....and I am glad it is not up to me. While they disconnect themselves from the Church we should not wish excommunication upon them. We must tread carefully.

[brianthephysicist]

[quote name='Odin' timestamp='1338589118' post='2439667']
Hmmm while I definitely agree with the notion and think some action needs to be taken, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that instead we should try to reform these people and pray for them to return....not until all resources have been exhausted should excommunication be implemented. It is a tough call though....and I am glad it is not up to me. While they disconnect themselves from the Church we should not wish excommunication upon them. We must tread carefully.
[/quote]
This.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Odin' timestamp='1338589118' post='2439667']
Hmmm while I definitely agree with the notion and think some action needs to be taken, I have heard pretty convincing arguments that instead we should try to reform these people and pray for them to return....not until all resources have been exhausted should excommunication be implemented. It is a tough call though....and I am glad it is not up to me. While they disconnect themselves from the Church we should not wish excommunication upon them. We must tread carefully.
[/quote]

Exactly.

I think we need to remember that the people who are most vocal against the Vatican on this are in the minority in the LCWR. There aren't many, at all. Most are willing to work with Bishop Sartain, and he's had nothing but the most charitable things to say about the situation.

[Odin]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1338601641' post='2439762']
Exactly.

I think we need to remember that the people who are most vocal against the Vatican on this are in the minority in the LCWR. There aren't many, at all. Most are willing to work with Bishop Sartain, and he's had nothing but the most charitable things to say about the situation.
[/quote]

Indeed. And while there are some not only in the LCWR (mostly leadership) but also in politics, etc who may merit excommunication (and may be the only viable way left) it is not our call to make and we should instead pray for their conversion to the truth.

[Sister Marie]

I wish I could give you more props, Basilia.

The LCWR isn't an "order" to begin with. The leadership is five women (or something like that) who have done some great things (such as their work in social justice), and have failed in some other ways, like us all. The "excommunication attitude" is unhelpful to the entire situation and only serves to further sever relations in the Church especially since these women haven't done anything to be excommunicated for... excommunication is reserved for very serious situations, not disagreements. An example of an excommunicable offense would be supporting/cooperating in an abortion. I only know of one sister, not a leader of the LCWR, who has done this. Making theological/ecclesial mistakes or omissions is hardly comparable.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1338602134' post='2439765']
I wish I could give you more props, Basilia.

The LCWR isn't an "order" to begin with. The leadership is five women (or something like that) who have done some great things (such as their work in social justice), and have failed in some other ways, like us all. The "excommunication attitude" is unhelpful to the entire situation and only serves to further sever relations in the Church especially since these women haven't done anything to be excommunicated for... excommunication is reserved for very serious situations, not disagreements. An example of an excommunicable offense would be supporting/cooperating in an abortion. I only know of one sister, not a leader of the LCWR, who has done this. Making theological/ecclesial mistakes or omissions is hardly comparable.
[/quote]

I agree with you Sister Marie but I was watching the CBS evening news and they said that those nuns want to become women priests and some supported contraception. I don't take this as a light disagreement. It seems to be full knowledge dissension of Church teachings. I'm sure they are all wonderful people who provide many services needed to Christian ministry but with all due respect I have to disagree with you in that they are making mistakes. Now I think it is extreme to excommunicate them. Before that would happen I would like to see them go through a church teachings course or something along those lines. I feel like we shouldn't push anyone away from the church by means of excommunication but at the same time I think that we should prevent those people from keeping others away by means of their ignorance of Church teachings.

[Odin]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1338603532' post='2439772']
I agree with you Sister Marie but I was watching the CBS evening news and they said that those nuns want to become women priests and some supported contraception. I don't take this as a light disagreement. It seems to be full knowledge dissension of Church teachings. I'm sure they are all wonderful people who provide many services needed to Christian ministry but with all due respect I have to disagree with you in that they are making mistakes. Now I think it is extreme to excommunicate them. Before that would happen I would like to see them go through a church teachings course or something along those lines. I feel like we shouldn't push anyone away from the church by means of excommunication but at the same time I think that we should prevent those people from keeping others away by means of their ignorance of Church teachings.
[/quote]

Amen. The problem lies not only with them, but with many priests, nuns, and other religious....most specifically in colleges who mold young Catholic minds into something that is away and outside of the Church. Excommunication is always a last resort, but these people put others at risk....which I think is nothing to scoff at.

[Sister Marie]

Again... these are individuals... not the LCWR as a whole. The original post was about the LCWR as an "order." This is what people keep misunderstanding. The LCWR is not an order. It's a resource center for congregational leaders who don't have to believe anything one woman in the LCWR says. You are talking about a very small number of religious women - not the majority. You need to reread my comment in light of that... it's unfair to take it out of context.

Many people do not understand the relationship of the LCWR to individual communities and so they have erroneous ideas that they all believe the same thing - it IS NOT true! The disagreements I was referring to were that the sisters are focusing too much on social justice and not enough on abortion... that isn't excommunication material! Working for abortion is! There is a BIG difference between the two.

The secular and religious media are doing a terrible job of reporting the truth of religious life right now and the way the LCWR works and, as a result, religious women like myself are being thrown into the same bag as the (very few) women who protest for women priests and abortion rights when it's completely false!

There is NO commonly held belief in the LCWR! There is nothing for which ALL OF THE LCWR should be excommunicated. Individuals, maybe... but that is the judgment of the Church and NOT us as individuals.

Obedience to the Church works both ways - the "conservatives" have to be just as obedient as the "liberals" do. It isn't anyone's place in the Church here on Phatmass to decide who gets to stay and who gets to go. That is pride.

[Annie12]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1338604343' post='2439779']
Again... these are individuals... not the LCWR as a whole. The original post was about the LCWR as an "order." This is what people keep misunderstanding. The LCWR is not an order. It's a resource center for congregational leaders who don't have to believe anything one woman in the LCWR says. You are talking about a very small number of religious women - not the majority. You need to reread my comment in light of that... it's unfair to take it out of context.

Many people do not understand the relationship of the LCWR to individual communities and so they have erroneous ideas that they all believe the same thing - it IS NOT true! The disagreements I was referring to were that the sisters are focusing too much on social justice and not enough on abortion... that isn't excommunication material! Working for abortion is! There is a BIG difference between the two.

The secular and religious media are doing a terrible job of reporting the truth of religious life right now and the way the LCWR works and, as a result, religious women like myself are being thrown into the same bag as the (very few) women who protest for women priests and abortion rights when it's completely false!

There is NO commonly held belief in the LCWR! There is nothing for which ALL OF THE LCWR should be excommunicated. Individuals, maybe... but that is the judgment of the Church and NOT us as individuals.

Obedience to the Church works both ways - the "conservatives" have to be just as obedient as the "liberals" do. It isn't anyone's place in the Church here on Phatmass to decide who gets to stay and who gets to go. That is pride.
[/quote]
Thank you for your post Sister Marie! That's true! LCWR is not an order. But here is their mission statement:
[quote][size=3][color=#000000]The purpose of the conference shall be to promote a developing understanding and living of religious life by:[/color][/size][list]
[*][size=3]assisting its members personally and communally to carry out more collaboratively their service of leadership in order to accomplish further the mission of Christ in today's world.[/size]
[*][size=3]fostering dialogue and collaboration among religious congregations within the church and in the larger society.[/size]
[*][size=3]developing models for initiating and strengthening relationships with groups concerned with the needs of society, thereby maximizing the potential of the conference for effecting change.[/size]
[/list]
[/quote]
Now if this is their mission statement and there are many nuns, orders even who dissent to church teachings, don't you think they could use some stricter guidelines?

Also, the Pope is calling for a [i]renewal[/i] of the LCWR. This is not bad. Renewal is Good! It's a fresh start! It's a second chance!

All in all, I truly believe that as Catholics, we should trust that the Holy father is being guided by the Holy Spirit on this matter. God bless!

[LaPetiteSoeur]

[quote name='Annie12' timestamp='1338603532' post='2439772']
I agree with you Sister Marie but I was watching the CBS evening news and they said that those nuns want to become women priests and some supported contraception. I don't take this as a light disagreement. It seems to be full knowledge dissension of Church teachings. I'm sure they are all wonderful people who provide many services needed to Christian ministry but with all due respect I have to disagree with you in that they are making mistakes. Now I think it is extreme to excommunicate them. Before that would happen I would like to see them go through a church teachings course or something along those lines. I feel like we shouldn't push anyone away from the church by means of excommunication but at the same time I think that we should prevent those people from keeping others away by means of their ignorance of Church teachings.
[/quote]

There has been lots of misinformation about the visitation and the CDF announcement. I spoke at length to some sisters whose religious order is a member of the LCWR, and they were shocked at how the world viewed them. They were saddened and sickened that many thought them to be pro-abortion--one of them asked me how people could possibly think that! The sisters I know accept the Church's teaching that women cannot be priests, but if the church changed her position, they would be ok with it--since that is what the Church teaches.

So to excommunicate ALL of the sisters--the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong and support the teachings of the Church , magisterium, and the pope--is ridiculous. If a sister does participate in an excommunicable offense: say, working at an abortion clinic or participating in a female ordination, then sure, excommunicate her. But if not? Absolutely not!

[truthfinder]

Maybe a better solution would be to dissolve the structure of the LCWR and create a completely new body with better guidelines and different leadership. It wouldn't be excommunication but it might be a more thorough and at the same time perhaps easier way to reform this leadership conference.

[Annie12]

[quote name='LaPetiteSoeur' timestamp='1338610108' post='2439827']
There has been lots of misinformation about the visitation and the CDF announcement. I spoke at length to some sisters whose religious order is a member of the LCWR, and they were shocked at how the world viewed them. They were saddened and sickened that many thought them to be pro-abortion--one of them asked me how people could possibly think that! The sisters I know accept the Church's teaching that women cannot be priests, but if the church changed her position, they would be ok with it--since that is what the Church teaches.

So to excommunicate ALL of the sisters--the vast majority of whom have done nothing wrong and support the teachings of the Church , magisterium, and the pope--is ridiculous. If a sister does participate in an excommunicable offense: say, working at an abortion clinic or participating in a female ordination, then sure, excommunicate her. But if not? Absolutely not!
[/quote]
Your're completely right! I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I absolutely am against excommunicating people with out a reason (aren't all Catholics?).
I need to look in to this more but all I am saying is that if people are going against Church teaching and are in the public's eye catholic, then I believe the Holy Father has a right to do what ever he see's fit. I wasn't grouping all the nuns under the LCWR in this category. But you have to admit there are nuns affiliated with the LCWR who are dissenting from church teachings and publicly voicing their frustrations and therefore keeping other away from the Church. It was on CBS. I do want to acknowledge that there are many women religious who are truly holy women that affiliate with the LCWR, they just don't make it into the news because they're so wonderful!

[Annie12]

No matter what happens on this issue, we shouldn't get our feathers ruffled because Christ is in the lead and we should trust in him! It's the only way to go!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1338604343' post='2439779']
Again... these are individuals... not the LCWR as a whole. The original post was about the LCWR as an "order." This is what people keep misunderstanding. The LCWR is not an order. It's a resource center for congregational leaders who don't have to believe anything one woman in the LCWR says. You are talking about a very small number of religious women - not the majority. You need to reread my comment in light of that... it's unfair to take it out of context.

Many people do not understand the relationship of the LCWR to individual communities and so they have erroneous ideas that they all believe the same thing - it IS NOT true! The disagreements I was referring to were that the sisters are focusing too much on social justice and not enough on abortion... that isn't excommunication material! Working for abortion is! There is a BIG difference between the two.

The secular and religious media are doing a terrible job of reporting the truth of religious life right now and the way the LCWR works and, as a result, religious women like myself are being thrown into the same bag as the (very few) women who protest for women priests and abortion rights when it's completely false!

There is NO commonly held belief in the LCWR! There is nothing for which ALL OF THE LCWR should be excommunicated. Individuals, maybe... but that is the judgment of the Church and NOT us as individuals.

Obedience to the Church works both ways - the "conservatives" have to be just as obedient as the "liberals" do. It isn't anyone's place in the Church here on Phatmass to decide who gets to stay and who gets to go. That is pride.
[/quote]

The problem is the media portrays this as a black and white issue: the mean old male Vatican against the poor little white haired sisters, and its working very well in favor of the nuns. If you defend the Vatican the first line out of the opposition's mouth is that nuns don't rape little boys. Perception is everything, facts are nothing.