qfnol31 Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340075700' post='2446137'] Well, I didn't establish this government. That looks suspiciously like voluntaryism. [/quote]I'm not sure that the Church is advocating voluntarism by any stretch. I think it is simply saying that a Democracy, or in our case, a Republic is a legitimate form of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340074730' post='2446130'] Not binding upon the faithful [/quote] Posting from phone will reply to your other points when I can. But I'm certain the Church teaches that it is morally obligatory to pay taxes for the common good. Which is binding. Edited June 19, 2012 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1340076395' post='2446143'] Posting from phone will reply to your other points when I can. But I'm certain the Church teaches that it is morally obligatory to pay taxes for the common good. Which is binding. [/quote] It's morally obligatory to pay just taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1340075847' post='2446138'] I'm not sure that the Church is advocating voluntarism by any stretch. I think it is simply saying that a Democracy, or in our case, a Republic is a legitimate form of government. [/quote] So a democracy in which 51% of the people force 49% of the people to submit? I've yet to see anyone explain the mechanism by which a certain collective attains exemption from the commandments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340108276' post='2446232'] So a democracy in which 51% of the people force 49% of the people to submit? I've yet to see anyone explain the mechanism by which a certain collective attains exemption from the commandments.[/quote] Practical necessity. This is the real world. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1340076395' post='2446143'] Posting from phone will reply to your other points when I can. But I'm certain the Church teaches that it is morally obligatory to pay taxes for the common good. Which is binding. [/quote] It's morally obligatory to pay just taxes. You'll find it mentioned in the CCC in 2409, below that in a paragraph listing tax evasion as morally illicit. Taken alone, this would put us in a position to be unable to oppose any taxation. One cannot assume from that note that all taxes are legitimate, nor that any body of people (legitimate government presumably being those who may tax) is capable of levying taxes. The legitimate exercise of authority is in question. Anyone may defend moral law. It's not peculiar to the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 u mad? hahahha i troll u. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340109239' post='2446239'] It's morally obligatory to pay just taxes. You'll find it mentioned in the CCC in 2409, below that in a paragraph listing tax evasion as morally illicit. Taken alone, this would put us in a position to be unable to oppose any taxation. One cannot assume from that note that all taxes are legitimate, nor that any body of people (legitimate government presumably being those who may tax) is capable of levying taxes. The legitimate exercise of authority is in question. Anyone may defend moral law. It's not peculiar to the state. [/quote] Win, I am not directing this at you. Your post got me thinking, which I do not like before my second cup of coffee. Just. Now who determines which taxes are just and which are unjust. Am I obligated to not pay a tax if I believe such tax is unjust? By doing so, I risk going to jail causing pain and suffering for my wife and kids. Paying an unjust tax does not make me a collaborator with its cause. That said, I believe it is extremely difficult to take one’s property justly, especially the government. This is why it very important to not be passive in the political process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1340111505' post='2446243'] Win, I am not directing this at you. Your post got me thinking, which I do not like before my second cup of coffee. Just. Now who determines which taxes are just and which are unjust. Am I obligated to not pay a tax if I believe such tax is unjust? By doing so, I risk going to jail causing pain and suffering for my wife and kids. Paying an unjust tax does not make me a collaborator with its cause. That said, I believe it is extremely difficult to take one’s property justly, especially the government. This is why it very important to not be passive in the political process. [/quote] To me, it amounts to the choice of a well-formed conscience. Certainly the motivation of tax evasion would play a role in whether an act was sinful, or not. Tax evasion cannot be inherently evil unless taxes are inherently just. Even a properly constituted government would be made of fallible people. However, we may render unto Caesar. We may give money to an unjust government, because taxes are demanded by force. Just as you do not have to resist other unjust assaults upon you, you may pay taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340113028' post='2446250'] To me, it amounts to the choice of a well-formed conscience. Certainly the motivation of tax evasion would play a role in whether an act was sinful, or not. Tax evasion cannot be inherently evil unless taxes are inherently just. Even a properly constituted government would be made of fallible people. However, we may render unto Caesar. We may give money to an unjust government, because taxes are demanded by force. Just as you do not have to resist other unjust assaults upon you, you may pay taxes. [/quote] You know who loved taxes, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340108276' post='2446232'] So a democracy in which 51% of the people force 49% of the people to submit? I've yet to see anyone explain the mechanism by which a certain collective attains exemption from the commandments. [/quote]Majority rules in a society. Live with it, convince the majority to change it, or leave. That's freedom. Nobody here has purposely made the argument that the 'collective' is exempt from commandments or moral behavior. Just as the author of the article you keep linking to states, perfection isn't expected, but striving for an ideal is. I disagree with his, (and your) delusion that an ideal anarchy can even be a realistic ideal given the fact we fallible humans with extremely divergent opinions of needs or wants, not to mention the whole property rights problem in a sophisticated society and economy. Though I have to admit, there's always dreamers creating new societies and social orders in odd places like Wacco, Guyana, or Catalonia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1340120922' post='2446302'] Majority rules in a society. Live with it, convince the majority to change it, or leave. That's freedom. Nobody here has purposely made the argument that the 'collective' is exempt from commandments or moral behavior. Just as the author of the article you keep linking to states, perfection isn't expected, but striving for an ideal is. I disagree with his, (and your) delusion that an ideal anarchy can even be a realistic ideal given the fact we fallible humans with extremely divergent opinions of needs or wants, not to mention the whole property rights problem in a sophisticated society and economy. Though I have to admit, there's always dreamers creating new societies and social orders in odd places like Wacco, Guyana, or Catalonia. [/quote] When you make the argument that taxation is morally good, you exempt the taxing entity from the rules regarding theft that bind everyone else. No one has explained this mechanism. Your objection should also apply to giving fallible humans a monopoly on legalized violence. Edited June 19, 2012 by Winchester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomaly Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1340131009' post='2446368'] When you make the argument that taxation is morally good, you exempt the taxing entity from the rules regarding theft that bind everyone else. No one has explained this mechanism. Your objection should also apply to giving fallible humans a monopoly on legalized violence. [/quote]Taxation is morally neutral. People want to live in a developed society and want the things that a government can provide that needs taxes for financing. To an extent, in freer societies, we get to vote on the things we get taxed on. Anarchy precludes the will of the majority by the tyranny of the few. Anarchy supposes a government is limited to only what all can agree upon. If the majority want to finance a road with fuel taxes, a few who disagree will then consider the taxes as 'unjust' because they don't desire the road. We live in way too complex and large society/economy to be beholden to a few, doing only what all can agree to. My objection doesn't apply to giving a government on monopoly on legalized violence, but an oligopy. When the government doesn't act as the majority desire, REVOLUTION. Only in strictly narrow moral circumstances does an individual have the right to legalized violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I wish I had more time today to give proper replies but I do not. However, [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_01111885_immortale-dei_en.html"]Immortale Dei[/url] and [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_20061888_libertas_en.html"]Libertas[/url] are both good readings to understand the proper understanding of Liberty, the role of the State or Civil Authority, and the role of the people. Both don't seem compatible with much of what Anarchists preach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 [quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1340132406' post='2446373'] Taxation is morally neutral. People want to live in a developed society and want the things that a government can provide that needs taxes for financing. To an extent, in freer societies, we get to vote on the things we get taxed on. Anarchy precludes the will of the majority by the tyranny of the few. Anarchy supposes a government is limited to only what all can agree upon. If the majority want to finance a road with fuel taxes, a few who disagree will then consider the taxes as 'unjust' because they don't desire the road. We live in way too complex and large society/economy to be beholden to a few, doing only what all can agree to. My objection doesn't apply to giving a government on monopoly on legalized violence, but an oligopy. When the government doesn't act as the majority desire, REVOLUTION. Only in strictly narrow moral circumstances does an individual have the right to legalized violence. [/quote] Taxation is morally neutral by what mechanism? Anarchy would be the absence of coercion. Me not permitting you to take from me is not "tyranny". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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