Girls State Director Says Teen Must 'sacrifice' Mass Attendanc

[4588686]

So the woman who wrote back to her is also a Catholic. How is this discrimination? There is no law requiring her to go and this is a private organization. Understandably they do not want to commit to bringing in a personal Chaplin for every individual and given that they are dealing with high school students they probably can't let her wonder around looking for a Church. This isn't discrimination. This girl wants special treatment and they are not willing to accomidate her request and so she's choosing not to accept a really great opportunity. Neither party is really in the wrong. Sometimes in life some things just doesn't work out.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Hasan

[fides' Jack]

I think you're missing the point, Julia.

This country was founded on religious beliefs, and they are still important to most Americans. Even if people don't agree, it's still expected that institutions are respectful of those beliefs. It's illegal to discriminate against potential job candidates based on religious beliefs.

Obviously this organization cares about having members, because they decided to have a non-denominational service, but they don't care about [i]how[/i] or [i]why[/i] they get members, because if they did, they would have allowed a priest to come in [i]once[/i] to say Mass. It's not like it's hurting them at all... But to come back and say, "some people have to give up other things, like track" or whatever, that's showing not only ignorance, but also arrogance AND an anti-religious position.

Whatever this group once had that led the girl to respect them, they've lost it.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337880730' post='2434432']
So the woman who wrote back to her is also a Catholic. How is this discrimination? There is no law requiring her to go and this is a private organization. Understandably they do not want to commit to bringing in a personal Chaplin for every individual and given that they are dealing with high school students they probably can't let her wonder around looking for a Church. This isn't discrimination. This girl wants special treatment and they are not willing to accomidate her request and so she's choosing not to accept a really great opportunity. Neither party is really in the wrong. Sometimes in life some things just doesn't work out.
[/quote]

Just because it's discrimination doesn't make it illegal. But the girl who cannot go apparently understands her faith better than the "Catholic" who wrote back.

[4588686]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1337881161' post='2434433']
I think you're missing the point, Julia.

This country was founded on religious beliefs, and they are still important to most Americans. Even if people don't agree, it's still expected that institutions are respectful of those beliefs. [/QUOTE]

It's still expected that private institutions respect those beliefs? Say who? I must have missed that article the last-time I read the constitution.
[QUOTE] It's illegal to discriminate against potential job candidates based on religious beliefs. [/QUOTE]

As well it should be. That has not the slightest thing to do with this, however. And even if this were pertaining to employment this would still not count as discrimination. They are not excluding her because she is Catholic. She is choosing not to attend because they won't make special arrangements for her. There was actually a roughly analgous court case in the USSC with an opinion written by Scalia of a woman who was a 7th Day Adventist and her employer fired her because she refused to work Saturdays. The USSC found, of course, that this was not discrimination or any infringement on her rights. You are confusing religious liberty with everybody needing to accomidate you and make sure that your religious beliefs never require any sacrifice on your part.

[QUOTE] Obviously this organization cares about having members, because they decided to have a non-denominational service, but they don't care about [i]how[/i] or [i]why[/i] they get members, because if they did, they would have allowed a priest to come in [i]once[/i] to say Mass.[/QUOTE]

That's right. Because Girls State is a big effing deal and I assure you that there are plenty of girls who would be thrilled to jump on the chance to take her spot. They did, however, take the time to write back to her and try to persuade her to go.

[QUOTE] It's not like it's hurting them at all... [/QUOTE]

This probably wouldn't. But taking one step in accommodating her special needs would commit them to accommodating others. They are doing a religiously generic service. Why should this girl get to bring in the pastor she wants. Well, if she can then shouldn't everyone get to request a religious leader to their liking? That's a headache that they probably don't want to deal with.

[QUOTE] But to come back and say, "some people have to give up other things, like track" or whatever, that's showing not only ignorance, but also arrogance AND an anti-religious position. [/QUOTE]
[img]http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lx39w4imMr1qftkh9.jpg[/img]


[QUOTE] Whatever this group once had that led the girl to respect them, they've lost it.
[/quote]

They're not the ones telling her that attending would lead her to commit the mortal sin that is missing mass. That's her Church.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Hasan

[4588686]

[quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1337881280' post='2434434']
Just because it's discrimination doesn't make it illegal. But the girl who cannot go apparently understands her faith better than the "Catholic" who wrote back.
[/quote]She probably does. The girl didn't do anything wrong either. Sometimes in life things just don't work out. I really wanted to go to the phatmass meetup. I can't. Does that mean that I was discriminated against because the organizers picked a time that was very inconvient for me? Nope. Of course not. They made a time that worked for most people. This private group made accomidations that work for most of the girls they accepted. Unfortunately, they didn't work for this girl. Like the song says, sometimes you can't always get what you want.

[rhetoricfemme]

At least the student who declined seems like someone with the personal gumption and caliber to do something about it.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337880020' post='2434427']
Yeah, it is. Just because you claim that bread and wine magically transforms into the body and bloody of Christ doesn't mean that everyone has to wax poetic about what a glorious belief that is and how much more worth that activity is than all others.
[/quote]
Even if they don't agree with how the Mass works, they should be respecting and acknowledging that there are multiple faiths being represented by the elite students chosen for this program. To offer one option for worship is an insult to these girls' integrity.

[4588686]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' timestamp='1337882248' post='2434442']
At least the student who declined seems like someone with the personal gumption and caliber to do something about it.[/QUOTE]

Very true.


[QUOTE] Even if they don't agree with how the Mass works, they should be respecting and acknowledging that there are multiple faiths being represented by the elite students chosen for this program.[/QUOTE]

I don't see any evidence that they don't. But this was addressed to Ice's taking offense at comparing the mass to a track meet. If you know any athletes you know that make have a religious zeal about their sport. They sacrifice a lot for it and pour a lot of pain and sweat into being great at it. It is comparable from a non-biased perspective. There are girls just as dedicated to sports or whatever as she is to her faith. Just because she claims that her passion has super natural origins doesn't mean that they have to drop everything to give her special accommodation.

[QUOTE] To offer one option for worship is an insult to these girls' integrity.
[/quote]

Obviously not since most of them don't find it offensive and are attending.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337882603' post='2434444']
I don't see any evidence that they don't. But this was addressed to Ice's taking offense at comparing the mass to a track meet. If you know any athletes you know that make have a religious zeal about their sport. They sacrifice a lot for it and pour a lot of pain and sweat into being great at it. It is comparable from a non-biased perspective. There are girls just as dedicated to sports or whatever as she is to her faith. Just because she claims that her passion has super natural origins doesn't mean that they have to drop everything to give her special accommodation.
[/quote]

IAWTC. Sports is the new god in the US, so in that sense between Jesus and football, it is comparable what vies for our money, time, and attention.

Since they are offering a "religious service", they are discriminating against her by refusing to allow her to go worship God according to the dictates of her conscience. I doubt their non-denom service meets requirements for Muslims to worship either. Can they get away with discriminating against her, sure. Obviously it plays into the credibility of the organization. Is she right for turning them down, yes.

This also reminded me that my hope of all these lawsuits (abortion, homosexuality, religious liberty) make their way through the system is that end up with a reminder of what the separation of church and state actually means and the limits that it puts on the government, not on religious organizations.

[arfink]

Ahaha, classic Hasan troll.

I know at least a tiny sliver of what it's like to have to say "no" to someone or something because of my faith. I've never given up something of that magnitude for my faith, but I've had to do things like refuse to allow my employer to schedule me in such a way as to miss Sunday mass, and to deal with the rotten attitude I have gotten from my co-workers that I don't have to work on Sunday morning, but am scheduled for every other day of the week.

Part of our cross as Catholic is that the world refuses to understand us. It can only accept the popular paradigm. Thus we suffer persecution in the modern age, not at the hands of torturers or hungry animals, but with the confusion and rejection of a world we long to love with Christ's love.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337882009' post='2434438']
It's still expected that private institutions respect those beliefs? Say who? I must have missed that article the last-time I read the constitution.

As well it should be. That has not the slightest thing to do with this, however. And even if this were pertaining to employment this would still not count as discrimination. They are not excluding her because she is Catholic. She is choosing not to attend because they won't make special arrangements for her. There was actually a roughly analgous court case in the USSC with an opinion written by Scalia of a woman who was a 7th Day Adventist and her employer fired her because she refused to work Saturdays. The USSC found, of course, that this was not discrimination or any infringement on her rights. You are confusing religious liberty with everybody needing to accomidate you and make sure that your religious beliefs never require any sacrifice on your part.

That's right. Because Girls State is a big effing deal and I assure you that there are plenty of girls who would be thrilled to jump on the chance to take her spot. They did, however, take the time to write back to her and try to persuade her to go.

This probably wouldn't. But taking one step in accommodating her special needs would commit them to accommodating others. They are doing a religiously generic service. Why should this girl get to bring in the pastor she wants. Well, if she can then shouldn't everyone get to request a religious leader to their liking? That's a headache that they probably don't want to deal with.

They're not the ones telling her that attending would lead her to commit the mortal sin that is missing mass. That's her Church.
[/quote]

Way to read something that I didn't say. The constitution comment was way off base. I meant that it's generally expected in our culture. It's not written anywhere, but it's undeniable (except for trolls).

I understand that they're not excluding her. She's doing that herself - and rightly so. I honestly don't have a problem with their policy (well, not more of a problem than the attitude that they have about it). My beef is with the rude response letter.

Still, having a service for a protestant, and refusing to have one for a Catholic (which they could easily do - and I really doubt that anybody else would have the backbone to ask for a different one), is discrimination.

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337882232' post='2434441']
She probably does. The girl didn't do anything wrong either. Sometimes in life things just don't work out. I really wanted to go to the phatmass meetup. I can't. Does that mean that I was discriminated against because the organizers picked a time that was very inconvient for me? Nope. Of course not. They made a time that worked for most people. This private group made accomidations that work for most of the girls they accepted. Unfortunately, they didn't work for this girl. Like the song says, sometimes you can't always get what you want.
[/quote]

Your analogy doesn't work. The difference is in the response of the organization. It wasn't in the inability of the girl to participate (based on religious beliefs), it was in the active response she received back from them.

So a proper analogy might go more like this: you want to go, but can't unless you can have pickles while you're there (because you place your soul in mortal peril if you don't have your pickles). dUSt doesn't have any pickles, but he does have tomatoes. You think, "tomatoes! That's not the same thing!" You send him an email telling him that you can bring your own pickles, because you really want to attend this meeting that you hold in high respect. He responds and says that other people are fine with tomatoes, and you should be, too. Then he makes light of your beliefs by saying, "besides, pickles are nasty, anyway. Nobody eats them anymore."

That's a better analogy. And yes, I think in that case, dUSt would be discriminating against you. Not by your actions, but by his.

[Strictlyinkblot]

If nothing else fair play to the girl for standing up for her convictions. I remember being laughed at by my friends when I went looking for Sunday mass while on a sun holiday.

As others have said I don't see how a non-denominational service would be able to provide for all the most common religions. Was she the only catholic attending this? If not surely the priest who had agreed to come would say mass for all those who wanted to attend.

[Slappo]

IDGI.... I honestly don't understand the big deal here and mostly agree with Hassan. :shrug:. This isn't religious discrimination, bigotry, or any such thing... It is a secular event. It may be poor planning on the part of the event schedulers to not allow their attendees to fulfill relgiious obligations, but it isn't discriminatory.

I'm more offended that they offered a non-denom service and refused to allow other options than I am that they specifically refused her special treatment. As if non-denom was a one size fits all. If they didn't offer any relgious service, and also did not allow people to attend a church service of any kind then I'd have zero problems.

If it was a big enough deal and a legitimate reason to miss mass according to the spiritual advice of her pastor then the girl could have requested a dispensation from the sunday mass obligation. I've had to miss mass on Sunday for various legitimate reasons. Birth of my child, 12 hour flight from LA to China where I was literally in the air for all "24 hours" of Sunday (12 hour time change 12 hour flight). I've also had to make sacrifices to attend mass - skip out on a tournament game to attend mass on Sunday for instance.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337882009' post='2434438']
There was actually a roughly analgous court case in the USSC with an opinion written by Scalia of a woman who was a 7th Day Adventist and her employer fired her because she refused to work Saturdays. The USSC found, of course, that this was not discrimination or any infringement on her rights.

[/quote]

The Supreme Court looked at Sherbert v. Verner and reversed that decision in favor of the woman.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1337882603' post='2434444']
I don't see any evidence that they don't. But this was addressed to Ice's taking offense at comparing the mass to a track meet. If you know any athletes you know that make have a religious zeal about their sport. They sacrifice a lot for it and pour a lot of pain and sweat into being great at it. It is comparable from a non-biased perspective. There are girls just as dedicated to sports or whatever as she is to her faith. Just because she claims that her passion has super natural origins doesn't mean that they have to drop everything to give her special accommodation.
[/quote]

Dearest Hasan, the only thing I take offense at is how hastily you can race to conclusions sometimes. I'm not offended, I just think it's incredibly stupid to compare an athletic event to a religious one. Zeal and effort aside, the ends each seeks to achieve are so vastly different its laughable. One concern the fate of your immortal soul, the other temporary glory/fame/sense of accomplishment or whatever. In light of the former, the latter is drastically unimportant.

So ok, you think the afterlife is all a bunch of fairy tales and hocus pocus and many of those who even believe in all that nonsense don't think religion is a big deal and thus comparable to a sports event. Great, I understand that's the general intellectual climate right now, but I think its incredibly asinine.

Additionally I don't quite remember saying the program should "drop everything to give her special accommodations." Although it seemed that the girl had done most of the grunt work on arranging that, but whatever. It's just how it is. It's stupid, but I'm not the one yelling for a lawsuit.

Oh hassy I don't know why you dislike me so! Is it my avatar? Am I too mugly looking? I thought we could be friends! I am so disappoint.

[4588686]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1337891918' post='2434490']
The Supreme Court looked at Sherbert v. Verner and reversed that decision in favor of the woman.
[/quote]



Yoooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu ............................................................. Are exactly right. And now I look stupid[er]









This is why women shouldn't be educated.