Gays In Military

[kujo]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1338561062' post='2439318']
what if they both consent?
[/quote]

Doesn't matter--one is a federal crime, the heinousness of which is pretty self-evident. The other is a harmless contract that doesn't affect you, me and hardly anyone else.

[Groo the Wanderer]

again

harmless...like recreational drug use, prostitution, and large men in speedo thongs on the beach. all activities carried out by consenting adults....

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338562152' post='2439339']


Doesn't matter--one is a federal crime, the heinousness of which is pretty self-evident. The other is a harmless contract that doesn't affect you, me and hardly anyone else.
[/quote]Is it wrong because it's a federal crime or a federal crime because it's wrong?

If it's wrong of itself what about the generations of men and boys who don't recognize your position?

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338562578' post='2439349']
Is it wrong because it's a federal crime or a federal crime because it's wrong?

If it's wrong of itself what about the generations of men and boys who don't recognize your position?
[/quote]

Well, I happen to think it's gross. But that's beside the point--somewhere along the way, these laws came into existence, and they're on the books now. Protecting children from the immense physical and psychological damage associated with being raped, or duped into a longterm sexual "relationship," with an adult certainly qualifies as an attempt to preserve what almost anyone--save for pedophiles-- would deem as the "common good," while, in my opinion, preventing gays from getting married simply does not--save for religiously minded folks who disagree with the practice.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338562954' post='2439358']


Well, I happen to think it's gross. But that's beside the point--somewhere along the way, these laws came into existence, and they're on the books now. Protecting children from the immense physical and psychological damage associated with being raped, or duped into a longterm sexual "relationship," with an adult certainly qualifies as an attempt to preserve what almost anyone--save for pedophiles-- would deem as the "common good," while, in my opinion, preventing gays from getting married simply does not--save for religiously minded folks who disagree with the practice.
[/quote]This post implies that religious people cannot be involved in state matters because their interest is only religious. It also implies that religion is in opposition to the state because it's religion. Finally, it implies that the majority of Americans who currently oppose gay marriage are doing so only because they're religious and that atheists and non-religious people are automatically going to believe in gay marriage.

I do recognize a legitimate point of distinction between our views on marriage as a basic good, but it sounds like simply because a person is religious and agrees with religion they should be excluded from the public debate on this matter.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338563315' post='2439362']
This post implies that religious people cannot be involved in state matters because their interest is only religious. It also implies that religion is in opposition to the state because it's religion. Finally, it implies that the majority of Americans who currently oppose gay marriage are doing so only because they're religious and that atheists and non-religious people are automatically going to believe in gay marriage.

I do recognize a legitimate point of distinction between our views on marriage as a basic good, but it sounds like simply because a person is religious and agrees with religion they should be excluded from the public debate on this matter.
[/quote]

I didn't say any of those things, and I resent you seeing phantom implications in my very plain-spoken words. Religious folk can absolutely be a part of civil society, but they can't act all butthurt when people take issue with the way they use their constitutionally-protected beliefs as the sole explanation for the support, or opposition, to some policy or another. Because an increasingly large segment of this country is beginning to move up and out of the pew, I would think that it would be a natural result that people do not accept the authority of various priests, bishops and Catholic commentators on certain subjects. This one is an example where you can quote any and every pope and bishop in the history of the Church and it wouldn't be valid or convincing evidence for anyone other than devout Catholics.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338563793' post='2439367']


I didn't say any of those things, and I resent you seeing phantom implications in my very plain-spoken words. Religious folk can absolutely be a part of civil society, but they can't act all butthurt when people take issue with the way they use their constitutionally-protected beliefs as the sole explanation for the support, or opposition, to some policy or another. Because an increasingly large segment of this country is beginning to move up and out of the pew, I would think that it would be a natural result that people do not accept the authority of various priests, bishops and Catholic commentators on certain subjects. This one is an example where you can quote any and every pope and bishop in the history of the Church and it wouldn't be valid or convincing evidence for anyone other than devout Catholics.
[/quote]I don't expect very many people to be persuaded by the Pope or bishops unless it's Catholics on a Catholic topic (not what we're discussing, but say something like transubstantiation). I think it's unreasonable to expect the common person to accept them on the basis of their authority, so I agree there.

I had difficulty with this particular phrase: [quote] while, in my opinion, preventing gays from getting married simply does not [constitute a move to protect a common good] --save for religiously minded folks who disagree with the practice.[/quote] Even here I know many Catholics who would agree with you. It's the second half of the sentence, about save religiously minded folks. I have also seen some good arguments by atheists. I feel like I've done fairly well to make a rational argument. I don't just believe this as a matter of faith, but also as a participating American. I don't think that my arguments recently have been about accepting authority, nor do I see the push against gay marriage as only a religious one.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338563793' post='2439367']
... all butthurt... their constitutionally-protected beliefs...
[/quote]

gay 'marriage' aint constitutionally protected dood, nor is the right to practice homosexual activities in the military

Edited June 1, 2012 by Groo the Wanderer

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338564373' post='2439374']
I had difficulty with this particular phrase: Even here I know many Catholics who would agree with you. It's the second half of the sentence, about save religiously minded folks. I have also seen some good arguments by atheists. I feel like I've done fairly well to make a rational argument. I don't just believe this as a matter of faith, but also as a participating American. I don't think that my arguments recently have been about accepting authority, nor do I see the push against gay marriage as only a religious one.
[/quote]

In hindsight, I can see how the way I phrased that sounded somewhat dismissive or pedantic. Rest assured that this was NOT my intention. I was merely pointing out that the overwhelming majority of the opposition to gay marriage comes from various different Christian churches. While I am certain that there are atheist, political, Jewish and pastafarian groups who could come up with a good reason that gay marriage shouldn't occur, I think it's definitely fair to say that most opinions against gay marriage are influenced, in whole or in part, by some form or another of a Christian definition of what constitutes morality.

[qfnol31]

I accept that, thanks.

I love Pastafarians.

[kujo]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1338564578' post='2439377']
gay 'marriage' aint constitutionally protected dood, nor is the right to practice homosexual activities in the military
[/quote]

Well, they're also not specifically outlawed or prohibited completely, which means that these decisions ought to be made either by the states themselves, or through a constitutional amendment.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338564778' post='2439378']
In hindsight, I can see how the way I phrased that sounded somewhat dismissive or pedantic. Rest assured that this was NOT my intention. I was merely pointing out that the overwhelming majority of the opposition to gay marriage comes from various different Christian churches. While I am certain that there are atheist, political, Jewish and pastafarian groups who could come up with a good reason that gay marriage shouldn't occur, I think it's definitely fair to say that most opinions against gay marriage are influenced, in whole or in part, by some form or another of a Christian definition of what constitutes morality.
[/quote]So what is your point? A community establishes standards of behaviors so we can have an ordered society. There are many opinions as to what is considered good or bad for the individual and/or the group and most opinions are based on subjective criteria. In this matter of gays in the military, the question is how protections given to inidviduals affects the larger group. What are the immediate consequences, and what are the long term consequences? Ultimately majority conjecture prevails.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338564778' post='2439378']
In hindsight, I can see how the way I phrased that sounded somewhat dismissive or pedantic. Rest assured that this was NOT my intention. I was merely pointing out that the overwhelming majority of the opposition to gay marriage comes from various different Christian churches. While I am certain that there are atheist, political, Jewish and pastafarian groups who could come up with a good reason that gay marriage shouldn't occur, I think it's definitely fair to say that most opinions against gay marriage are influenced, in whole or in part, by some form or another of a Christian definition of what constitutes morality.
[/quote]

still sounds dismissive of Christians and other religious groups. again you seem to imply that everyone is entitled to an opinion and a position on this except religious folks.

[Ice_nine]

last night I had a spicy chicken sandwhich from Wendy's. I felt sick after. Heartburn. Took some tums.

Right after which I yakked it all up. But it was pretty colors at first from the tums. Although it was still really spicy and chunky on the way up.


But yeah gays in the military / / /

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1338565928' post='2439394']
So what is your point? A community establishes standards of behaviors so we can have an ordered society. There are many opinions as to what is considered good or bad for the individual and/or the group and most opinions are based on subjective criteria. In this matter of gays in the military, the question is how protections given to inidviduals affects the larger group. What are the immediate consequences, and what are the long term consequences? Ultimately majority conjecture prevails.
[/quote]

Correct. There's nothing wrong with presenting a religious viewpoint in this debate. But it's not nearly the trump card that some would like it to be. If we were all super duper Catholic, or at least super duper some-sort-of-Christian, this probably wouldn't be an issue.

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1338567334' post='2439403']
still sounds dismissive of Christians and other religious groups. again you seem to imply that everyone is entitled to an opinion and a position on this except religious folks.
[/quote]

No, I just dismiss insipid commentary from folks who lack in the reading comprehension department. This goes left, right, religious, atheist, etc. This being a Catholic forum, my attacks on the explanations offered tend to appear to be anti-Catholic in nature. But that's just a sampling problem. You'll have to trust me in that I resist equally hard against the anti-Catholic and anti-religious comments I hear from people who agree with me on the issue of gay rights.