Gays In Military

[Amory]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1338467347' post='2438618']

uh...why should the government encourage virtue?
[/quote]

As I stated above, the very purpose of government is to promote the common good. Now, unless you are a materialist (and perhaps even if you are), you will acknowledge that proper morality is part of the common good. In order for a society to flourish--primarily in a non-material sense but perhaps to some degree in a material sense as well--virtue is necessary.

Furthermore, the common good includes the spiritual health of society. Moral decay contributes to spiritual death--both here and hereafter--and thus the government, pursuant of the common good, has an obligation to promote the moral character of those subject to it.

[kujo]

Who defines "proper morality" in a pluralistc secular state like the U.S.

[Ice_nine]

scuse me, just need to wipe all the blood off the wall from banging my head against it

thanks guys

[Papist]

The good old days are good, no?

[Amory]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338485436' post='2438719']
Who defines "proper morality" in a pluralistc secular state like the U.S.
[/quote]

Even a government without an establishment of religion can recognize and legislate on the basis of the natural law. Furthermore, the overwhelmingly Christian majority in the United States has historically been quite successful at supporting laws on the basis of traditional Christian moral views.

[kujo]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1338485883' post='2438723']
Even a government without an establishment of religion can recognize and legislate on the basis of the natural law. Furthermore, the overwhelmingly Christian majority in the United States has historically been quite successful at supporting laws on the basis of traditional Christian moral views.
[/quote]

Anyone can say that their opinion is based on natural law. That's sorta the problem. I believe that in a state of nature scenario, you and I would be totally oblivious to each other's sexual preferences because it wouldn't affect us. So long as your desires don't fringe upon my rights, any opinion I may have on the moral turpitude of your desires is absolutely inconsequential.

As for your "overwhelmingly Christian" nonsense, I'd tell you that it's 2012, and there's no single unified Christian church in America. Thus, there isn't a universally-applicable Christian tree of knowledge to pluck nuggets of wisdom from. And that's the way it should be, in a secular republic such as our own.

[PhuturePriest]

I like being the spectator as opposed to being the one getting his nose bloodied for once.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338487079' post='2438746']


Anyone can say that their opinion is based on natural law. That's sorta the problem. I believe that in a state of nature scenario, you and I would be totally oblivious to each other's sexual preferences because it wouldn't affect us. So long as your desires don't fringe upon my rights, any opinion I may have on the moral turpitude of your desires is absolutely inconsequential.

As for your "overwhelmingly Christian" nonsense, I'd tell you that it's 2012, and there's no single unified Christian church in America. Thus, there isn't a universally-applicable Christian tree of knowledge to pluck nuggets of wisdom from. And that's the way it should be, in a secular republic such as our own.
[/quote]Kujo, do you personally believe in Natural Law, and if so, how do you define it.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338487196' post='2438749']
Kujo, do you personally believe in Natural Law, and if so, how do you define it.
[/quote]

What natural laws are we talking about?

And I'll readily admit that I am not versed enough in the philosophy, the theology or the ontology of this subject to have an extended debate.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338487334' post='2438755']


What natural laws are we talking about?

And I'll readily admit that I am not versed enough in the philosophy, the theology or the ontology of this subject to have an extended debate.
[/quote]I'm specifically referring to the idea that all men desire to do good by nature, desire to avoid evil, and have a certain,varying amount of knowledge about how to do so. This last part refers to the level of specificity that each person knows about what is proper and what is not, moving in degree from the very basic "do good" to the very specific.

I don't mean laws of nature as the concept was perverted by Locke (while he undoubtedly had a good point to make, he did in fact pervert the original idea).

C. S. Lewis has an excellent introduction to the basic idea and history of natural law in Mere Christianity.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338487079' post='2438746']
As for your "overwhelmingly Christian" nonsense, I'd tell you that it's 2012, and there's no single unified Christian church in America.
[/quote]
Not to mention that I'd wager very, very many self-identified Christians in America are quite in favor of "gay rights" (so much so that it would make me look like Shirley Phelps with a more fabulous hairdo).
According to a study, the breakdown of Christians, as a percentage of the whole population) is as follows:
26.3% Evangelical (33.5% of Christians), 22% Roman Catholics (28% of Christians), and 16% Mainline Protestant (20.4% of Christians), with the rest being minority parties. Let's say that virtually all Evangelicals hold a tradition view on the matter, and that half of people who identify as Catholic do (which, really, is probably pretty generous), and that nearly all Mainline Protestants are in favor of the "new way". That still is only about 47.5% of Christians in America who hold a traditional view of how homosexuality should be dealt with in the public arena.

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338487632' post='2438761']
I'm specifically referring to the idea that all men desire to do good by nature, desire to avoid evil, and have a certain,varying amount of knowledge about how to do so. This last part refers to the level of specificity that each person knows about what is proper and what is not, moving in degree from the very basic "do good" to the very specific.

I don't mean laws of nature as the concept was perverted by Locke (while he undoubtedly had a good point to make, he did in fact pervert the original idea).

C. S. Lewis has an excellent introduction to the basic idea and history of natural law in Mere Christianity.
[/quote]

I think everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die. In other words, we all have some notion of what constitutes "good" and "evil," and the friction that occurs in society owes itself, to a large degree, to the divergence of these beliefs.

[qfnol31]

USAirwaysIHS, your statistics don't take into account the frequency of worship or the level of commitment.

Most people who practice religious studies say that these must be accounted for if we want more truthful statistics.

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338488072' post='2438767']


I think everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die. In other words, we all have some notion of what constitutes "good" and "evil," and the friction that occurs in society owes itself, to a large degree, to the divergence of these beliefs.
[/quote]How do you feel about the natural desire to do good?

[kujo]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338488189' post='2438769']
USAirwaysIHS, your statistics don't take into account the frequency of worship or the level of commitment.

Most people who practice religious studies say that these must be accounted for if we want more truthful statistics.
[/quote]

Further[color=#282828]more, there's no way of quantifying stringency and degrees of belief. I'd say I'[/color][color=#282828]m Catholic, but I'[/color][color=#282828]m in favor of gay [/color][color=#282828]marriage and against abortion and the death penalty. How would a statistician deal with contradictions?[/color]

[qfnol31]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338488277' post='2438774']


Further[color=#282828]more, there's no way of quantifying stringency and degrees of belief. I'd say I'[/color][color=#282828]m Catholic, but I'[/color][color=#282828]m in favor of gay [/color][color=#282828]marriage and against abortion and the death penalty. How would a statistician deal with contradictions?[/color]
[/quote]As long as you attend weekly, the general tendency is to put you into the category of more committed Catholic, so long as you also self-identify as such.