Gays In Military

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338444264' post='2438551']
1. I didn't know Hasan was an atheist.

2. Does it ever bother you, or anyone else, that the Church has a tendency to tell us what we [font=Segoe UI, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][color=#282828]have to believe? I dunno...that's always been a stu[/color][/font][color=#282828]mbling block for [/color][color=#282828]me.[/color]
[/quote]

In the last 'Does God exist' debates I recall having with him he argued against, I argued for God existence.

Properly understood the Church teaches us what we must believe. And it is true she like Christ is a stumbling block,

[kujo]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1338445532' post='2438563']
In the last 'Does God exist' debates I recall having with him he argued against, I argued for God existence.

Properly understood the Church teaches us what we must believe. And it is true she like Christ is a stumbling block,
[/quote]

Dunno if there's gonna be [color=#282828]more to this post, but I appreciate the charity in it. I was being sincere in stating that sub[/color][color=#282828]mission to the Church is the defining struggle of [/color][color=#282828]my faith walk up til this point. I don't often get vulnerable on Phat[/color][color=#282828]mass--or anywhere else, for that [/color][color=#282828]matter. But when it's [/color][color=#282828]met with prudence and care, I take note and give phishy props.[/color]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1338445532' post='2438563']And it is true she like Christ is a stumbling block,
[/quote]
[quote][sup]29 [/sup][color=#000000]Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls.[/color]
[sup]30 [/sup][color=#000000]For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.[/color][/quote]

[Amory]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1338444729' post='2438555']
Also, I still don't disagree with this. It would be fantastic if every individual in the US became a Christian and decided to enact laws reflecting that fact, including banning homosexuals from military service, teaching, and other roles deemed unsuitable. The fact is that the US isn't a Christian nation. It's a secular state with a set of laws that reflect [i]that[/i]
[/quote]


[left]A republic does not need to have the Catholic Church as an establishment of religion in order to encourage virtue, which (as George Washington noted in his Farewell Address) "is a necessary spring of popular government." [/left]

The moral truths of the natural law--such as the immorality of homosexual acts--can be known through reason alone. One does not have to accept the authority of the Church (or of Christ, for that matter) to recognize that same-sex intercourse is wrong.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Amory

[Kia ora]

[quote name='Amory' timestamp='1338448377' post='2438580']
[left]A republic does not need to have the Catholic Church as an establishment of religion in order to encourage virtue, which (as George Washington noted in his Farewell Address) "is a necessary spring of popular government."[/left]

The moral truths of the natural law--such as the immorality of homosexual acts--can be known through reason alone. One does not have to accept the authority of the Church (or of Christ, for that matter) to recognize that same-sex intercourse is wrong.
[/quote]

uh...why should the government encourage virtue?

[Amppax]

[quote name='qfnol31' timestamp='1338434173' post='2438376']
I'm going to answer this with a question/analogy.

Should a Catholic school hire a teacher/professor who constantly flaunts the authority of the Church? Should such a school be open to all points of view, regardless?
[/quote]

No, and it shouldn't have to be. In my view that's a completely different scenario.

[quote]
If a university has that privilege, then does a high school have it as well? What about a middle school? An elementary school?[/quote]

Yes, yes, and yes.

[quote]
My point is that at some point a person's (open) beliefs can cause harm and scandal for those over whom they have an influence. If an elementary school teacher (particularly in a Catholic school) lives an openly gay lifestyle and makes it known, then he could cause scandal to young children. It's very difficult to hear that the Church does not approve of homosexual sexual activities on the one hand and have a teacher who (implicitly or explicitly) disagrees on the other.[/quote]

I completely agree with you. However military =/= schools.

[quote]
Also, the document KoC has posted could also be extended to pedophiles. Pedophiles ought to be discriminated against when hiring. It's not a reflection of the person, but of his actions. That's what's at stake here and why discrimination can be licit.

Discrimination based on a person's actions is not wrong in and of itself. It just can't be.
[/quote]

Never said it was. In fact, if you read the beginning of the second paragraph, I said as much. But if we are so intent on banning homosexuals from the military, why aren't we banning adulterers? Or anyone else who commits grave sin, and does so in a public manner? What I'm seeing is that homosexuals are being specifically singled out here.

Also, this is related to this topic, but I read a pretty good article on what the sin of the Sodomites was. Here is a link for anyone whose interested. [url="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/the-sin-of-sodom"]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/the-sin-of-sodom[/url]

[kujo]

[quote name='Kia ora' timestamp='1338467347' post='2438618']


uh...why should the government encourage virtue?
[/quote]

Because the government is the legalistic entity involved in the new religion of statism. We need the state to encourage "moral behavior" because failure to do so would lead to...

..


...I've got nothing.

[kujo]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1338467547' post='2438619']

Never said it was. In fact, if you read the beginning of the second paragraph, I said as much. But if we are so intent on banning homosexuals from the military, why aren't we banning adulterers? Or anyone else who commits grave sin, and does so in a public manner? What I'm seeing is that homosexuals are being specifically singled out here.
[/quote]

Oh because being gay is badder.

[Papist]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1338467547' post='2438619']
Never said it was. In fact, if you read the beginning of the second paragraph, I said as much. But if we are so intent on banning homosexuals from the military, why aren't we banning adulterers? Or anyone else who commits grave sin, and does so in a public manner? What I'm seeing is that homosexuals are being specifically singled out here.
[/quote]

But is the 'ban' b/c the military is against the homosexual's behavior? Or is it the adverse effect of that behavior, sexual orientation on the others, resulting in a less than maximum end? Because if it is just the immorality of the sex acts, then you have an argument. I don’t think I have ever read/heard the official reason of the military’s policy.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Papist

[Anomaly]

So after reading this entire thread, to answer Dairy's poll, it seems that Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy would be okay to most Catholic interpretations, morally violate a few Catholics interpretation because it's too tolerant, then violate the rest because it's too hateful. Plenty of documentation to support why it's too tolerant or too hateful. Plenty of reason to let those who have strong opinion fight it out and avoid the Liberal or Bigot label.

Intense.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Anomaly

[kujo]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1338472010' post='2438640']
So after reading this entire thread, to answer Dairy's poll, it seems that Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy would be okay to most Catholic interpretations, morally violate a few Catholics interpretation because it's too tolerant, then violate the rest because it's too hateful. Plenty of documentation to support why it's too tolerant or too hateful. Plenty of reason to let those who have strong opinion fight it out and avoid the Liberal or Bigot label.

Intense.
[/quote]

They say that the perfect compromise is one that pleases no one.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1338473918' post='2438651']
They say that the perfect compromise is one that pleases no one.
[/quote]Not to be smarmy, but I can't send you a PM.
Saw your post regarding your sister and I've been thinking about it. Don't frustrate yourself (or your sister) thinking you can change people to love and accept your sister. You want your sister to know love and kindness? You show your love, and help her recognize other people's kindness and love towards her. We all get hated on for one reason or another. We usually can find what we look for.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1338472010' post='2438640']
So after reading this entire thread, to answer Dairy's poll, it seems that Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy would be okay to most Catholic interpretations, morally violate a few Catholics interpretation because it's too tolerant, then violate the rest because it's too hateful. Plenty of documentation to support why it's too tolerant or too hateful. Plenty of reason to let those who have strong opinion fight it out and avoid the Liberal or Bigot label.

Intense.
[/quote]
Haha. razzle dazzle.

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Anomaly' timestamp='1338472010' post='2438640']
So after reading this entire thread, to answer Dairy's poll, it seems that Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy would be okay to most Catholic interpretations, morally violate a few Catholics interpretation because it's too tolerant, then violate the rest because it's too hateful. Plenty of documentation to support why it's too tolerant or too hateful. Plenty of reason to let those who have strong opinion fight it out and avoid the Liberal or Bigot label.

Intense.
[/quote]I think I hinted at another option that didn't play out.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1338419698' post='2438182']
We Catholics must never stand for "traditional" moral standards against the Inevitable March of History.

Progress, Comrade!
[/quote]
You can stand for whatever you want. But just because you do it in the name of "traditional moral standards" doesn't change the facts of the society we live in. The emergence of things like gay marriage and "gay rights" is not about the morality wars that conservatives like to wage. It's about a democratic, technocratic, industrialist society that has been in progress for centuries. Conservatives want to preserve the good old days, but capitalism, democracy, industry, free markets...these things don't care about the good old days, and in fact, their maturation inevitably demolishes the good old days. That's the modernization that has made America into the empire that conservatives love so much.

The same conservatives who will defend the atomic bomb in one breath will rally against the repeal of don't ask don't tell in another breath. It never occurs to them that these are both examples of unnatural modernity. The conservative conception of what's unnatural is fixated on morality warfare. But the microwaves in our houses are unnatural. Unless we get the root of the problem, which is the principles on which modernity is based (and I mean modernity broadly, not merely the last 100 years), then excuse me if I don't join conservatives in their chants of "God save the Tsar!" all for the sake of the good old days.

That's not to say I am for or against the repeal of don't ask don't tell. I just think that the whole debate is a symptom of a larger problem, and obsessing over the symptom is like trying to cure gangrene by cleaning your foot with soap and water.

Ironically, even though you accuse me of defeatism before the so-called "Inevitable March of History," my point is just the opposite...that the only way out is to disentangle ourselves from the march of modern history. But conservatives don't want to go there, because they believe in the liberal-democratic order that has given rise to America as we know it...they just want it to be a liberal-democratic order with no gays visible in the armed forces.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Era Might